Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[Irrelevant]

They seriously aren't asking about locations this year? Last year when I got the call they did, and I think every time prior to that they asked what units I hunted in. I mean, it's a bit of a struggled to remember what units we were in 6 months later, esp when you hunt a half a dozen over a week.

 

[brockel]

Got my call over a month ago. Of course it was a number I didn’t recognize so I let it go to voicemail. Tried calling back after I listened to the voicemail and never got an answer. Haven’t got a call back since. Don’t feel like I need to chase them with phone calls to do my reporting. Put it online and I’ll fill it out every year right after season

 

[MTGomer]

Sounds to me like they're preparing to justify their wolf management for the lawsuits.

They’ve been asking weird wolf questions like that for a while. Mine was following the 2017 season

 

[EYJONAS!]

I was disappointed to share that for the 3rd year in a row.... still no whooping cranes.

No wuffs or bux either. Things are really tough out there.

The one question they didn't ask...... elk. The only tag I was fortunate to fill.

 

[Eric Albus]

Asked me if I pheasant hunted. No. Asked if I hunted waterfowl. No. Thank you

 

[Bambistew]

Probably me. I stand by the comment. They take a large enough sample that statistically the numbers should give a solid estimate of harvest (in most cases), but it is very 1980ish. Online survey would be a lot cheaper, easier and give better results. Seems like a no-brainer. Anyone not wanting it should be questioned.


It appears different surveyors are given different questions. It is hard for a single example to make a lot of sense. Like everyone, I don't really understand the surveyor's comment, other than they aren't trained very well.

I don't disagree that the survey can likely get them somewhat accurate info on total harvest. I've never looked at their actual survey data, it would be interesting to see how many people they actually call. What is a crap shoot is how they get to unit/season harvest information. They get zero details from their survey.

I haven't been called in a long time, but was surveyed a number of times. They used to ask what units I hunted, and how many days, but the later versions, were like the questions above. Makes me wonder if they have separate sets of questions.

There is no reason to not have online mandatory reporting. The amount of information they can gather quickly will dwarf the cryptic information they get from a 3 min phone call.

 

[SAJ-99]

I don't disagree that the survey can likely get them somewhat accurate info on total harvest. I've never looked at their actual survey data, it would be interesting to see how many people they actually call. What is a crap shoot is how they get to unit/season harvest information. They get zero details from their survey.

I haven't been called in a long time, but was surveyed a number of times. They used to ask what units I hunted, and how many days, but the later versions, were like the questions above. Makes me wonder if they have separate sets of questions.

There is no reason to not have online mandatory reporting. The amount of information they can gather quickly will dwarf the cryptic information they get from a 3 min phone call.

I don’t disagree. I have been called numerous times (this year they called at a bad time and I asked if they could call me back, but never did) They never asked the same set of questions. I’m not making a judgement, only saying it creates the lack of clarity. All I remember is they made what I thought was a massive number of calls.

Here is an article that may provide some context.

Montana hunter harvest surveys are underway

www.montanaoutdoor.com

 

[brockel]

Got my call over a month ago. Of course it was a number I didn’t recognize so I let it go to voicemail. Tried calling back after I listened to the voicemail and never got an answer. Haven’t got a call back since. Don’t feel like I need to chase them with phone calls to do my reporting. Put it online and I’ll fill it out every year right after season

Oddly enough I got a call this afternoon bozeman number so I figured I’d answer it. Was the old hunt survey. Deer, turkeys, and antelope and if I seen moose or wolves.

 

[BuzzH]

Got called last week just asked about deer, nothing else.

 

[rogerthat]

I don't disagree that the survey can likely get them somewhat accurate info on total harvest. I've never looked at their actual survey data, it would be interesting to see how many people they actually call. What is a crap shoot is how they get to unit/season harvest information. They get zero details from their survey.

I haven't been called in a long time, but was surveyed a number of times. They used to ask what units I hunted, and how many days, but the later versions, were like the questions above. Makes me wonder if they have separate sets of questions.

There is no reason to not have online mandatory reporting. The amount of information they can gather quickly will dwarf the cryptic information they get from a 3 min phone call.

How would you use that statewide harvest number for anything resembling management? You would not know what percentage of deer were killed out of what regions.

Luckily for fwp they can take their imaginary deer count numbers minus their imaginary harvest numbers to arrive at some other imaginary happy number that means absolutely nothing and continue doing the same thing every f’n year no matter what the imaginary numbers are. But they got an accurate accounting of where da woofs are right?

 

[KB_]

If they don't even ask where you hunted, how can they estimate anything other than state wide harvest, which is essentially useless in a state as large and diverse as Montana? A full census is always better than a sample, it's just usually cost prohibitive to achieve full census with most wildlife studies, but this is easily achievable with many working examples from multiple states. Charge $10 for no report before you can get another tag and it basically pays for itself as well. The thing about data is once you have it, you have it to use as needed, but once you miss the chance to collect it, it's gone forever. It's just the only responsible way for a game management agency to operate and it's inexcusable.

They asked me what units I hunted in. Told them and the lady said wow you were all over the place. Idk if thats an insult or a compliment lol.

 

[Ought Six]

With the E-tag system, you think they'd be able to incorporate a quick survey after you validate the tag. What unit? How many points on each antler? How many days in the unit? Ect. Even if only 45% of hunters use the new E-tag system, that could be some really useful data/reporting.

I think they are just easing us into the E-tag thing. Next thing you know, your submission will be geo-stamped, and you’ll have to upload a photo of the animal. I wouldn’t mind that honestly, there’s no secrets anymore, and would probably be better for the critters which is what it’s all about, plus cool to see what people are killing, until you see that pesky FWP biologist in full orange in your honey hole

 

[DFS]

I think they are just easing us into the E-tag thing. Next thing you know, your submission will be geo-stamped, and you’ll have to upload a photo of the animal. I wouldn’t mind that honestly, there’s no secrets anymore, and would probably be better for the critters which is what it’s all about, plus cool to see what people are killing, until you see that pesky FWP biologist in full orange in your honey hole

I don’t think the wildlife managers or biologists are hunting much. Certainly not on public land where I frequent. They have told me I need to gain access to private if I would like better hunting.

 

[Ought Six]

I don’t think the wildlife managers or biologists are hunting much. Certainly not on public land where I frequent. They have told me I need to gain access to private if I would like better hunting.

Good point. Did you tell them you got private to access and it’s bad there too?

 

[DFS]

Good point. Did you tell them you got private to access and it’s bad there too?

Yes.

 

[Ought Six]

Yes.

I think the wildlife managers and biologists have a bad case of Ligma

 

[JT88]

I got the call a few days ago.

Her: Did you hunt deer? And how many days?
Me: Yes, around 10 days
Her: Did you kill a deer?
Me: No, I didn't see any mature bucks
Her: Did you turkey hunt? How many days?
Me: I bought a tag but only made it out once, didn't harvest a turkey
Her: What unit?
Me: (I told her)
Her: Ok, Thanks for the information
Me: I did kill a bull elk
Her: We aren't taking any elk harvest information unit after March 1st
Me:
Also me: Ever heard the phrase "Kill two birds with one stone?"

 

[SAJ-99]

I got the call a few days ago.

Her: Did you hunt deer? And how many days?
Me: Yes, around 10 days
Her: Did you kill a deer?
Me: No, I didn't see any mature bucks
Her: Did you turkey hunt? How many days?
Me: I bought a tag but only made it out once, didn't harvest a turkey
Her: What unit?
Me: (I told her)
Her: Ok, Thanks for the information
Me: I did kill a bull elk
Her: We aren't taking any elk harvest information unit after March 1st
Me:
Also me: Ever heard the phrase "Kill two birds with one stone?"

LOL. And someone said FWP argued that an online system was too expensive. I have to assume that they are employing Hank's relatives to make these calls.

 

[Mtn-time]

Here is a link to a previously published article in response to some of the comments and questions. https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/montana-outdoors/2009/phonesurvey.pdf
Maybe it will provide some insight and additional thoughts on the subject.

 

[Bambistew]

Here is a link to a previously published article in response to some of the comments and questions. https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/montana-outdoors/2009/phonesurvey.pdf
Maybe it will provide some insight and additional thoughts on the subject.

Interesting article. Lots of head scratchers there.

Each winter, from early December through mid-April, roughly 50 temporary, part-time phone surveyors call approximately 250,000 hunters and eventually reach and interview 100,000, about 60 percent of the hunters who purchase licenses

What? That's only 40%... did they mean 60% didn't answer the phone?

For instance, we know from other survey work that nonresident hunters spend an average of $175 a day on mule deer hunting,” Brooks says. “If we learn from the winter phone surveys that hunting districts around Broadus are seeing about 2,200 nonresident hunter days each season, we could say the economic value of mule deer hunting to that area is around $385,000 annually.”

They are obviously not economists...

The idea behind “mandatory reporting” is that it’s cheaper and gathers data from more hunters. But it doesn’t quite work that way, says Gude, because many hunters don’t comply.

After evaluating other states’ hunter harvest survey methods, he found that compliance ranged from 85 percent in Washington to only 10 percent in Oregon.

So by their own admission they only get 40% (the one guy interviewed reported 3650 respondents out of 10,000 calls or 36% response) compliance with phone calling, but claim its better than 85% compliance? Who's to say the guys responding to the calls are any more/less truthful than a guy reporting online? OR, the guys that dodge the phone or specifically answer it and gush over their experience when the caller ID says "MT FWP"? I really feel like they are just trying to justify this program. Why not have a one time mandatory reporting survey and compare to the phone call system?

Alaska has mandatory reporting, you can't apply for permits if you don't report. If you fail to report on a registration tag, you are issued a citation and can't apply for hunts for a year. Plenty of ways to get people to comply. No survey, no tags... I'd guess they're in the 85% compliance range. I think a lot of NR fail to report, no consequence, but they can compare sales to reports and sort it out easy enough.

As a result, Idaho Game and Fish must call 40,000 of the hunters who don’t report and conduct phone interviews. “They told us they spend $200,000 each year on their mandatory system before they even do the follow-up survey,” says Gude. “That’s 60 percent more than we spend, and they sell about half the number of licenses and permits we do.”

You're telling me they employ 50 people part time for 4 months, and only spend $80,000 to to make 250,000 calls? I estimate costs for a living... there is zero chance they are funding this program on $80k with 50 employees for 4 months, part-time or not. It costs money to have the heat and lights on, not to mention the computers, phones, etc. $400/mo per employee?

Its the government, they can't operate that cheaply, what they spend isn't equal to what it cost. The government is 3x less efficient with management and contracting than private contractors. Put it this way, the guys in charge of this part-time dog and pony show cost money, there is probably one guy in charge and at least 2 FT employees working on this program to manage those operators. Those FT employees cost probably in the neighborhood of at least $100k a year each with benefits, taxes, etc (that's assuming $60k a year job). That's ~$100k just to pay the FT employees assigned to the project for the 4 month duration. That doesn't count the crunching and data sorting/vetting from inaccurate entries, etc. nor pay for those part time employees.

Everything about that article sums up what I expected from FWP. I have even less confidence in their ability now.