Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[Schaaf]

I’m on the precipice of moving to Montana after concluding my career in the military and I get that “things aren’t as good as they used to be”, but holy cow there is a tremendous amount of outrage towards FWP and sniveling going on in these 90 pages. I’m just glad to be able to go hunting again after living overseas for 4 years. It seams that many of you missed your calling in becoming wildlife biologists and actually working for FWP to make the change you so desperately want. It’s never too late to change careers…

I mean, this is how a public agency is supposed to work. I would be far more concerned when or if the public becomes apathetic towards wildlife management.

Every bio/land manager I know personally would rather have an engaged public than one that doesn't care.

 

[Mountain Man]

I mean, this is how a public agency is supposed to work. I would be far more concerned when or if the public becomes apathetic towards wildlife management.

Every bio/land manager I know personally would rather have an engaged public than one that doesn't care.

I wasn’t suggesting the HT populous be apathetic. I just don’t see how it is productive to slam FWP at every turn because it is perceived to be so incompetent. How are those types of comments productive when trying to discuss/improve the plan that was introduced 90 pages ago?

 

[Mountain Man]

Sometimes the word sniveling gets confused with people actually caring about the resource and concerned about the future. I think the majority complaining here would fall into that category.

I used that word purposely because it has been thrown around a number of times in this thread depending on which concern was being attacked with a trite put down.

I commend everyone for caring about the resource, it’s just the method of delivery that I think could use some refinement.

 

[Mountain Man]

I worked in 2 different agencies (FWP as a fisheries intern and WYGFD doing tech work) and the Feds working with FWP on projects. I left fisheries work to do engineering for a couple reasons, but a big one was how unbelievably political state game agencies, particularly FWP, can be. And this goes back well before the GG administration. There is little room to be outspoken on issues without very real implications for your job and financial security. In contrast, I can be more involved in the processes that matter (legislature, commission, etc) than I ever could as a bio. I am not saying bios don't matter (they absolutely do) but they are significantly hamstrung by the managers of the agency.

Fair point. I know exactly what you are talking about having seen the same dynamic at the highest levels of the Department of Defense between federal employees and presidentially appointed officials whose sole purpose was to implement political agendas. This is why it is supposed to be so difficult to fire federal/state employees, so as not to clean house every election cycle.

 

[DFS]

If they were straight forward with the public I think people would be more sympathetic. Instead we get buck size hasn’t changed, age class still robust, no change in hunter distribution, record counts on public land, animals didn’t die they just migrated. Doe harvest is extremely low even though we see trailers full of them. Everything is still great you just need to try harder. I’m sure there is higher powers not allowing them to tell the truth. It is not hard to see why they have lost the trust of the public hunter that has much experience.

 

[DFS]

We are going to manage off the best science that comes from other states that don’t have a general rut hunt. There is no ground breaking research coming from Montana to my knowledge.

 

[Sytes]

Reality I find discussing topics such as this, most don't care/know near enough to convey a fair observation.
HT has been instrumental addressing various key State issues. A fraction of hunters comprehend the intricacies of topics such as MT MD status.

More a gripe over single layer issues. This is multi layered and great to share here though we are a minority for opinions.

Example: spoke of lack of funding for MD research / improvements. Non HT response, "Raise NR fees", "They're good - not paying more...", Pay to reduce wolf count (R1 topic at most every FWP meeting), etc...

I suppose that's the value of the CAC though if traction is lacking impact w/ FWP - ? "We're adequately funded".

General hunters like that statement. Bitch away though, reality, they don't want to pay more but they do want to hunt more...

 

[Forkyfinder]

Reality I find discussing topics such as this, most don't care/know near enough to convey a fair observation.
HT has been instrumental addressing various key State issues. A fraction of hunters comprehend the intricacies of topics such as MT MD status.

More a gripe over single layer issues. This is multi layered and great to share here though we are a minority for opinions.

Example: spoke of lack of funding for MD research / improvements. Non HT response, "Raise NR fees", "They're good - not paying more...", Pay to reduce wolf count (R1 topic at most every FWP meeting), etc...

I suppose that's the value of the CAC though if traction is lacking impact w/ FWP - ? "We're adequately funded".

General hunters like that statement. Bitch away though, reality, they don't want to pay more but they do want to hunt more...

I dont know who here wants to maintain existing tag fees - especially on non-doe/cow tags

 

[cgasner1]

Ep. 287: Mule Deer and Montana Hunting Seasons with Ben Lamb and Chris Gasner | MeatEater Podcasts

On this week's interview, Cal chats with two Montana hunters about a controversial proposal to shorten Montana's mule deer and elk seasons. Connect with Cal and MeatEater Cal on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube Shop Cal's Week in Review Merch

www.themeateater.com

For those of you that are interested

 

[mtmiller]

Cool, something to listen to at the gym and a warm up before the debate tonight.

You guys better be entertaining.

 

[Tukudeka]

I'm looking forward to the second draft of this proposal defining for FWP the draft one mentions of quantity of deer, quality of hunting experience, health of deer, and avoidance of the degradation of deer. Without definitions FWP is currently, albeit arguably so, aiming at all of the goals this proposal is claiming to orient us toward.

What exactly are we asking FWP to manage towards?
What exactly are the goals of these proposed changes?

 

[Shangobango]

FWP is asking for public comments on the MDCAC’s principals here:

https://fwp.mt.gov/aboutfwp/commission-councils-committees/mule-deer-citizens-advisory-committee

 

[GreenEyes]

FWP is asking for public comments on the MDCAC’s principals here:

https://fwp.mt.gov/aboutfwp/commission-councils-committees/mule-deer-citizens-advisory-committee

Thank you for posting this link.

 

[Rie Bread]

Nice and easy to do!

 

[Shed God]

Iam too, looking for the second proposal. Hopefully management and science are the only factors. Not $$$

 

[ismith]

At this juncture, I think questions for clarification of the proposal(s) are appropriate. But hipshots of criticism are not! Hopefully this thread won't degenerate into the rabbit hole of hundreds of criticisms and varied contradictory opinions by others not part of this group and just wanting to spout their personal perspectives. This representative group of knowledgeable and experienced advocates for improvement of wildlife management and hunting season structure has crafted a well balanced wheel of proposal to submit to FWP. Let's ask them about anything we don't quite understand, but let's NOT try to re-invent the wheel. Instead, support what has been painstakingly created and help them implement some great improvements.

 

[Itsbeef]

Good afternoon folks. We all know that the current status of mule deer in Montana is a topic of great interest and debate. Many folks who have hunted mule deer for decades have expressed frustration and alarm over the downward trend in both quantity of mule deer and quality of hunting experience under the status quo of mule deer management.

Back in February, a group of us met to discuss the future of mule deer after spending years complaining about it online. The group was comprised of volunteers from each region of Montana and included landowners, outfitters, public land hunters and folks with a lot of experience interacting with FWP and the Montana Legislature on wildlife management issues.

During that day long meeting, the group of 9 members of Hunt Talk discussed a variety of concerns ranging from season structure to predation to habitat issues.

There was unanimous consensus among the group that the health of mule deer and other wildlife resources must be priority in making management decisions. It was also unanimously agreed upon that our current management policies are no longer sustainable without causing degradation to mule deer.

Out of that conversation it was agreed upon that the lowest hanging fruit, and perhaps one of the most important to address was the way that Montana has structured it's general hunting seasons over the last 40 years.


Montana is an opportunity state, which is both a blessing and a curse. The North American Model calls for the democratization and egalitarian allocation of the wildlife resource and that is something that this group wanted to maintain. When we looked at overall herd numbers (we're at the bottom end of the 10 year cycle), loss of habitat and the large influx of both resident and non-resident hunters, it became clear that sustaining a liberal harvest strategy on mule deer was going to be problematic.

Also, the group recognized that while the growth of doe licenses has been severely curbed both through legislation (SB 281) and the Commission decisions that eliminated doe hunting in Regions 6 & 7, mule deer were still going to be at higher risk during the standard season structure. In order to bring back our mule deer herds, improve hunting strategies for elk to increase hunter efficacy and reduce overall the number of days it takes to harvest an animal, the group developed the following proposal.

Last week we released drafts of this proposal to various conservation organizations and to FWP for their consideration to begin gathering support for the proposed changes or for input on how to improve our proposals.

If you want more detail, read the attached PDF as these are just the bare-bones highlights.

The Big Change to Deer Hunting:

1.) Deer: Choose your region, choose your species: The idea is to spread around pressure and move the mule deer hunt out of the rut. Hunters must select a region and a species to hunt. This does not limit the hunter on OTC regional B licenses or unit specific B licenses. If you wish to hunt antlered mule deer in eastern Montana, who have to declare the region and the species. This limits your antlered hunting to that area, but you still may utilize a B license in the unit it is valid.

What doesn't change:

1.) Limited entry districts do not revert to the new general season structure, as they have limited pressure already, and can sustain longer general seasons.
2.) The backcountry hunts in the Scapegoat and Bob Marshall, Absaroka Wilderness, etc. stay the same.
3.) Two day youth hunt remains the same. Youth hunters during this two day season will not be limited to single region only and may hunt whitetail or mule deer in accordance with the regulations of the unit they are hunting.


Basic Season Structure:
August 25 - September 30th: Archery for whitetail, mule deer and elk

October 1 - October 31: Antlered Mule Deer. Doe harvest by permit only

October Cow Elk Season: Private land only, two weeks in length applied in the middle of mule deer season.

November 1-30: General Whitetail and Elk season. Liberal cow seasons on private land, permitted/licensed on public with very tight limitations to reduce hunter pressure.

December 7-16: Muzzleloader season

December 10-25: Additional Cow only season.

The cow seasons are meant to provide a meaningful alternative to shoulder seasons, which after a decade of use have both good and bad results. The idea on cow seasons is to focus pressure on areas that need it over a shorter period of time in order to “shock” elk back on to public land where tolerance is far higher and to assist biologists in bringing elk populations closer to objective in over objective units.


Montanans value the opportunity to hunt deer and elk at the same time. They value opportunity above antler size. We believe that this proposal will do several things to guarantee and improve opportunity for future generations by giving up just a tiny fraction of our opportunity today.

This proposal does not call for more limited entry areas, nor does it call for regional caps to limit hunter mobility. We have worked with outfitters, landowners and DIY public land hunters to pull this together to a place where we feel like it's ready for people to review and hopefully support.

I’d like to acknowledge the folks involved in bringing these proposals into what we are presenting here @bigsky2 (Jess Wagner), @cgasner1 (Chris Gasner), @Schaaf ( Justin Schaaf), @Gerald Martin,(Gerald Martin) @MTTW (Tim Willson) @Randy11 ( RandyHodges) @antlerradar (Art Hayes III), @Eric Albus , ( Eric Albus)and @Big Shooter (Rod Paschke) I also like to I thank @Ben Lamb for helping facilitate the meeting and organizing our ideas into a coherent proposal.

I like it, I agree montana needs restructure. Too many NR and people becoming residents to support that same structure that is in place. something needs to change. I like the idea of picking only 1 area to hunt.

 

[Shed God]

You would hate what I would say gerald. So I will keep quiet for the mule deer. Just saying I only buy a deer tag to apply for a trophy unit. Same as my kids. They not as good as greenhorns kids but they public land slayers.

 

[Gerald Martin]

You would hate what I would say gerald. So I will keep quiet for the mule deer. Just saying I only buy a deer tag to apply for a trophy unit. Same as my kids. They not as good as greenhorns kids but they public land slayers.

I respect that as your deer hunting strategy. Since that is your strategy though, why do you even care about how we propose to make changes to general deer units? It’s not like your region 3 elk spots are going to be ground zero for everyone heading there to hunt October mule deer.

 

[BenhuntinMT]

How many tags will be alocated to residents vs non residents? Not sure how I feel about archery starting in August, most years it's pretty hot. I'm a little worried about spoilage. I will usually skip the beginning of Sept. when it's still 90 degrees.