Montana 1 upped by Idaho in Wolf take shenanigans.

[BigHornRam]

Yep. Those address road and canopy security, but don’t tell much on the way of predator prey interactions and movements.

The Bob Marshall complex should be a long term study in and of itself.

The Bob Marshall has been allowed to manage itself. What would you hope to gain from a long term study?

Bob Marshall Wilderness - Forest History Society

Secretary of Agriculture Henry A. Wallace established the 950,000-acre Bob Marshall Wilderness August 16, 1940. Extending into the Lewis and Clark and Flathead National Forests, the Bob Marshall Wilderness was created by combining and reclassifying three primitive areas: South Fork Primitive...

foresthistory.org

 

[Ben Lamb]

^^^^^ Before the edit.

No kidding. Yet this thread is hyper focused on wolves, not humans.

Carry on.

I would say this thread is more hyper focused on politics.
Carry on.

Wolf management has always been political.

Ignoring that ignores the biggest driver of all wolf management philosophies.

 

[shoots-straight]

Over 50 years here myself. The situation now is different even if you don't want to admit it. mtmuley

Over time everything changes. Is it the result of wolves? Lions? Bears? Cheatgrass, dryer summers? I can tell you this. When I was a kid growing up, the Root was largely grazed off, with some fields left for hay. There was large scale potato fields, but not as much alfalfa as there is now . Elk show up on private alfalfa for a lot of reasons. One is that Cheatgrass has taken over the dry lowlands, and there's nothing to eat until you get really high, or hit the farmers fields. I still remember the first whitetail deer showing up in the River bottoms. There just wasn't many at all up until that time. The Elk showed up on some farms about 30 years ago in small numbers low and haven't left. They have their calves down low, and those calves are never taught the high country. These low elk never go back, they live their lives on the urban interphase. Why is another story. Not sure there was a wolf in the Sapphire range when the Elk started hitting Tintzmans alfalfa. They came for the groceries. When my family came here there was Bison, Big Horn Sheep, Elk, Deer, Grizzlies, and wolves, lions, Sage Grouse, Sharpe tails, all over the Root. What changed was their being killed off and habitat changes. There's lots of old Root wives tales I have heard, like the one you claimed where there was no Elk down low. There's also claims of no Elk. Complete BS.

 

[BigHornRam]

There are some remnants of an old apple orchard back in behind Rocky Mountain Log Homes that are now Forest Service land. Had to be a tough place to grow apples. I've heard the bitterroot grew a lot of apples at one time.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Over time everything changes. Is it the result of wolves? Lions? Bears? Cheatgrass, dryer summers? I can tell you this. When I was a kid growing up, the Root was largely grazed off, with some fields left for hay. There was large scale potato fields, but not as much alfalfa as there is now . Elk show up on private alfalfa for a lot of reasons. One is that Cheatgrass has taken over the dry lowlands, and there's nothing to eat until you get really high, or hit the farmers fields. I still remember the first whitetail deer showing up in the River bottoms. There just wasn't many at all up until that time. The Elk showed up on some farms about 30 years ago in small numbers low and haven't left. They have their calves down low, and those calves are never taught the high country. These low elk never go back, they live their lives on the urban interphase. Why is another story. Not sure there was a wolf in the Sapphire range when the Elk started hitting Tintzmans alfalfa. They came for the groceries. When my family came here there was Bison, Big Horn Sheep, Elk, Deer, Grizzlies, and wolves, lions, Sage Grouse, Sharpe tails, all over the Root. What changed was their being killed off and habitat changes. There's lots of old Root wives tales I have heard, like the one you claimed where there was no Elk down low. There's also claims of no Elk. Complete BS.

I heard that everything's the same, except them woofs.

 

[tjones]

I heard that everything's the same, except them woofs.

And a shit ton of immigrants, don't forget the immigrants.

 

[Ben Lamb]

And a shit ton of immigrants, don't forget the immigrants.

I heard elk like them subd's. Thrivin' in there.

 

[BigHornRam]

I heard elk like them subd's. Thrivin' in there.

Especially the fancy ones by the golf course. Tender grass on the back nine.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Especially the fancy ones by the golf course. Tender grass on the back nine.

Great place to hunt.

 

[BigHornRam]

Great place to hunt.

Covenants

 

[antlerradar]

Great place to hunt.

One of the biggest whitetail antlers I have ever found was just off a golf course.

 

[BWALKER77]

Biology got shot to shit when the Legislature disallowed the agency from deciding if those units should be closed or not. Because someone asked for the ability to have a 0 quota around the parks, the legislature eliminated the ability for the agency to make a decision relative to those units, or any units by eliminating their ability to have buffer zones anywhere. Do you remember the issues around bison and the slaughter that led to BFC throwing blood on Racicot? That kind of negative PR hurts the MT tourism economy and honestly, makes western states look pretty grim to a lot of people. As we often talk about, wildlife is a public trust resource for all citizens. Does only your view matter here?

The quotas around the parks are absolutely for social issues, but there's a biological component as well in that those two parks provide the only consistent refuge for wildlife, including wolves, in the GYE. They're the production factories and we've seen that those populations go up and down based on a variety of issues.

Elk on private is a pressure issue as well as habitat. Absolutely, wolves change the behavior of elk, and those elk find sanctuary where they can. That includes from the 6 months of bipedal wolves chasing them. But it should be acknowledged that those irrigated hay fields provide much better sustenance than sparse forage on public lands, and those private lands provide escape from fire as well.

Your issue isn't lack of elk, based on your post, it's lack of success and lack of access to them. Robert did yeoman's work explaining why killing all the wolves won't bring back your spots. You know I think the world of you Charles, but we're just gonna end up wildly flailing our arms on this one.

As for Democrats being too far to the left on this, I'm still waiting to see where MT, ID or WY dems did anything other than support state management and follow the wolf management plans everyone agreed to in the 90's. Nationally, yeah, there are some that are ridiculous on all wildlife issues, but they're not winning any policy wars on this issue. The AG of MI just filed a brief to relist the GL wolves, and that's a bad idea all around. CO voters approved the introduction of wolves, backed by some dems, so is that what your upset about re: politics? We used to have great agreement with moderate republicans and democrats on this issue, at least in MT. Guys like Kelly Flynn, whom we all did battle with on elk management and other issues, lived his ethics and supported state management plans when he was in the Legislature. He killed more anti-wolf bills than anyone else in the state. Plenty of R votes for the right thing in both the senate and the house, but politics became more important than actual management. I've literally told dem legislators not to bring specific bills forward because it just feeds the frenzy. Follow the plan, let the agency & commission make the decisions, and even if I disagree with them, at least the political influence will be reduced (never eliminated).

Is it maddening to watch people with no understanding of biology or the law enact laws that put state management at risk? You bet your ass it is. So many people bled for decades to make this happen, then the moron patrol comes in and undoes all of that work, putting state management in jeopardy over emotional claptrap.

At this point, if the wolf gets relisted, it's the state legislatures and Governors of MT & ID who are at fault. But that's what they want. They want this conflict and they want to be able to run on taking a tough stand against woofs and the federales. Make no mistake, if Dems were in power and doing this kind of crap, I'd be working to end their influence as well. Wildlife management is best served under the state agency/commission model. Empowering those bodies to make the correct decisions and not allow politicians to interfere with that management is the only way to bring some sanity back for every species.

Making western states seem grim to "alot of people" would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Walkalot]

U guys still dont get it. Fwp blm dnrc who ever controlled by yes men. The western states are grim if u a public land hunter. But if u willing to pay $$$$$$$$$$$$ u golden. The new bills and laws only making private land rich. Public shitty. The wolf thing prob a decoy to get people involved with that. No doubt wolves effect elk numbers and displace them. But the bigger pic is the direction the state of montana is going. A richmans playground. Only way to fix it is to vote people in that cannot be bought. And of course email when bad bills or laws come about

 

[Walkalot]

Hm ranchers dont care about wolves. They get paid regardless if a wolf kills a cow or sheep. Sad thing is they listen to ranchers more than the public. Who is always forcing shit down the publics throat. Ranchers and the rich. No different in mt. Ranchers and landowners dont care about public lands. If they do they hope it is shit so u will pay them to kill an animal. The whole system is corupted by money.

 

[JLS]

Ranchers and landowners dont care about public lands. If they do they hope it is shit so u will pay them to kill an animal.

You’re painting with a pretty broad brush.

 

[Walkalot]

Yes iam. The ones that care about public lands hope they get there allotments cheap as dirt. Cant have too many elk and deer eating all the grass. Give me an example of a rancher or land owner doing something significant for public lands. Forgot to mention rmef, there bought too.

 

[JLS]

Give me an example of a rancher or land owner doing something significant for public lands.

Well, the Sieben Ranches are a good start. I believe both are in Block Management too. I could name a number, to include a member here and some of his neighbors.

 

[Walkalot]

Oh thank god for block management. Nothings free

 

[Walkalot]

Sieben Live Stock participates in the Block Management program for two weeks every hunting season. If you want to hunt on Sieben Live Stock, you can only do so by getting through on the call-in day, which is 6:30am the last Saturday of September.

Directly from there website. Wow thanks

 

[Walkalot]

Bma is a joke