Militia takes over wildlife refuge headquarters

[JohnCushman]

My doctor says my eyesight is perfect, so I can only conclude you folks are watching a different video than me. The video I saw shows a person surrendering being shot anyways.
We don't do that to the enemy in combat.
If these FBI agents were marines, and funicum was taliban, and this were in Kandahar, these marines would be court marshaled, and serve lengthy sentences in Leavenworth.
I have no sympathy for the land grab movement, none, but I'm not all about federal officers being judge, jury and executioner, on an American citizen.
Maybe you saw a different video than I, maybe you are just trying to rationalize this being acceptable because you oppose his cause. To be honest, it kind of makes me smile too, but in the big picture, I know there's no justice in shooting a surrendering man, no matter who he is.

Are you so sure about that? Have you served over there? I know my SOP in the Army told me something different when I was in Iraq. When he sped away from the traffic stop he put his life in danger and would have had a couple of HUMVEEs waiting a few hundred meters down the road putting M2 rounds into his engine block, or his windshield if he still didn't stop. If he stopped and got out, he should have immediately dropped to the ground and spread his arms and legs, face down. When he ran towards the police reaching towards a pocket, that was a hostile action and would have gotten him killed in Iraq...with no court martial or lengthy stay in Leavenworth. They would probably get medals for it. He could have been reaching for a trigger on a suicide vest, and by not stopping for the traffic stop could have been a VBIED. So, if you haven't been there and don't know how things operate, then by all means, don't try to lecture us on how things would work...a'ight?

 

[tjones]

One thing for certain, we are living in damn crazy times.

 

[shoots-straight]

Maybe you didn't see him lower his hands toward his waist area before being shot, but I certainly did...its pretty easy to see. In the article the FBI stated a loaded handgun was found on him after the shooting.

Its a good shoot. They aren't marines, this isn't Afghanistan. Use of force standards (ie case law sent down from the supreme court) were met in this incident (as I cited above with Graham v. Connor)

I saw a guy that was buying time to get his gun out. He got shot trying to dig it out as he moved through the deep snow. To many layers of clothing was hindering his attempt.

If he was surrendering, why in hell's name did he get out of the car? Does not compute.

 

[idnative1948]

Exactly my thoughts also.

They weren't going to wait around to find out. Doesn't help that the guy said he'd never go peacefully either...and that he fled from a traffic stop...or almost rammed a couple of cars.

Good shoot. Graham V. Connor: 1) "the severity of the crime at issue"; 2) "whether the suspect poses an immediate threat to the safety of the officers or others"; and 3) "whether he is actively resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight."

 

[bobbydean]

I like the Cushman interjection. Knows what his business.

I if I thought a guy was pulling a gun, I would shoot. These assholes brought it on themselves. Defend them if you want. I would give warning to evacuate and use snipers. And tell them I use snipers. Get this shit over, Gone to long!

 

[smarandr]

It looks like the second guy out of the truck (first one to surrender) throws something to the ground as he exits the truck. A gun maybe?

 

[Big Fin]

About the only good that has come of this stupid situation brought forth by the Bundy clowns is that I've really be able to clean up a lot of Facebook folks that don't like my position on the topic and who evidently have far less appreciation for the risks law enforcement officers face every day than the level of appreciation I have for them and their service.

 

[Oneye]

With this video it is hard to tell. A body cam with sound would be more definitive. Making a split second decision as an officer would be very hard, and with no sound and such a far picture, there is no real way to tell. You have to think they were yelling to get down. Better footage is needed, hopefully there is a body cam that has audio to determine better what happened. If he was reaching into his pockets and being told to get down, it's justified, if he truly was shot once in the side and was grabbing his wound, it's not justified. It's impossibly to tell with no audio or a better view. The situation was escalated by the fact he fled from being pulled over, he said prior he was willing to die before going to jail, and then what exactly happens in this video is left to interpretation until better footage with audio is available.

 

[LopeHunter]

Are you so sure about that? Have you served over there? I know my SOP in the Army told me something different when I was in Iraq. When he sped away from the traffic stop he put his life in danger and would have had a couple of HUMVEEs waiting a few hundred meters down the road putting M2 rounds into his engine block, or his windshield if he still didn't stop. If he stopped and got out, he should have immediately dropped to the ground and spread his arms and legs, face down. When he ran towards the police reaching towards a pocket, that was a hostile action and would have gotten him killed in Iraq...with no court martial or lengthy stay in Leavenworth. They would probably get medals for it. He could have been reaching for a trigger on a suicide vest, and by not stopping for the traffic stop could have been a VBIED. So, if you haven't been there and don't know how things operate, then by all means, don't try to lecture us on how things would work...a'ight?

Testify! The wannabes read too many blogs and have Stockholm Syndrome. This truck would have been lit up 100 yards before the final destination in the snowbank if this was a hostile combat zone. Runner runner meet gunner gunner.

 

[James Riley]

I wish I had decent internet so I could watch the video. Next time I'm in town, I guess. Some say he was reaching for wounds, others say he was reaching for his pocket(s). Is it clear, one way or the other, or subject to reasonable disagreement?

On another note, while folks tend to place human life above all other considerations, I think it is entirely possible Finicum "is" (?) entirely pleased with the result and would not have had it any other way. If he'd be happy then so should we, and without smugness. Good for him. He created a win-win for himself and everyone (except maybe the guy who shot him and only then if he's bothered by it; and maybe for his loved ones, but they too should be happy for him). If he's happy then I have to toss him a bone for having the courage of his convictions. F**k prison, man. I disagree with his position on the merits of the dispute with the feds, to the point of thinking he was an ignorant fool, but for some folks, life ain't all it's cracked up to be. He's off that grid now. Time for us to move on.

Convictions and prison for all the rest (after due process of law).

 

[Oneye]

Here's the FBIs press release. They say he reached into his pockets twice and they found a 9mm handgun in that pocket.

https://m.fbi.gov/#https://www.fbi....ation-at-the-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge

 

[Elkmagnet]

My doctor says my eyesight is perfect, so I can only conclude you folks are watching a different video than me. The video I saw shows a person surrendering being shot anyways.
We don't do that to the enemy in combat.
If these FBI agents were marines, and funicum was taliban, and this were in Kandahar, these marines would be court marshaled, and serve lengthy sentences in Leavenworth.
I have no sympathy for the land grab movement, none, but I'm not all about federal officers being judge, jury and executioner, on an American citizen.
Maybe you saw a different video than I, maybe you are just trying to rationalize this being acceptable because you oppose his cause. To be honest, it kind of makes me smile too, but in the big picture, I know there's no justice in shooting a surrendering man, no matter who he is.

FYI, the FBI is saying that only Oregon state troopers fired during the incident.
At least lavoy didn't get everything he wanted.

With that said I feel bad for the officers and this idiots family.

 

[bigskyblueman]

The next federal lands Bundy intends to take control of. http://www.theonion.com/article/federal-government-adds-600000-acres-national-forb-51446

 

[hank4elk]

They were not in Kandahar and they are not freedom fighters.
In Albacrackie, the vehicle would have been fired on as soon as it went thru the 1st stop.
I saw the footage and the troopers had a clean case. The reach was PC.

Interesting interpretation of Paines writing too.
I guess he has a different version of his works.
Prolly a different version of the bible than mine too.

 

[JohnCushman]

If anyone is wondering why LaVoy wasn't given immediate medical attention, it's due to standard operating procedure of EMS for medical personnel. We are not allowed to roll up to the scene to treat patients until the police deem a scene clear and safe. With a possible gun involved and possibly more involved with the passengers in the truck, the scene wasn't safe for EMS personnel. Not until LaVoy was secured and the other people in the truck secured and the truck searched for explosives and the road blocked off for more possible 'party crashers' would EMS be allowed to come up to treat LaVoy. It's not EMS's choice or fault, it's just the way it is. That's one huge difference that was a big adjustment for me coming from a military medic to civilian...my patient could be laying in the street 30 feet away and we can see him bleeding out in the civilian rig, but we can't approach if something might be up until the cops say it's ok. Scene safety is preached big time in civilian EMS and the safety of the medic comes first...totally ass backwards from what I spent all those years in the military doing.

 

[spook12]

FYI, the FBI is saying that only Oregon state troopers fired during the incident.
At least lavoy didn't get everything he wanted.
.

An absolute stroke of genius of planning IMO, when dealing with these anti Fed types.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Only the LEO who approached the vehicle, watched an aggressive person exit, raise arms in the air, then change to a reach toward the waist, will be able to describe rationale in assessing the threat and deciding split-second to reduce such threat.

FACTS: 1. Finnicum clearly and strongly voiced his determination on widely publicized "tarpman" social media video not to be arrested and spend his days in a "concrete box."
2. A pistol was on his person at his waist position, likely assumed or perhaps even verified prior to the incident.
3. Finnicum as the vehicle driver sped away from a traffic stop, attempted to drive around a road block, almost hitting personnel and vehicles at the road block.
4. From the video his demeanor even with hands upraised was clearly that of an agitated person.
5. Finnicum had clearly stated that his firearms were to be used if he felt threatened by someone pointing a firearm at him, clearly the very scenario unfolding as he exited his vehicle.

Ask yourself, what would you have done if you were the LEO approaching the vehicle?

 

[hank4elk]

If anyone is wondering why LaVoy wasn't given immediate medical attention, it's due to standard operating procedure of EMS for medical personnel. We are not allowed to roll up to the scene to treat patients until the police deem a scene clear and safe. With a possible gun involved and possibly more involved with the passengers in the truck, the scene wasn't safe for EMS personnel. Not until LaVoy was secured and the other people in the truck secured and the truck searched for explosives and the road blocked off for more possible 'party crashers' would EMS be allowed to come up to treat LaVoy. It's not EMS's choice or fault, it's just the way it is. That's one huge difference that was a big adjustment for me coming from a military medic to civilian...my patient could be laying in the street 30 feet away and we can see him bleeding out in the civilian rig, but we can't approach if something might be up until the cops say it's ok. Scene safety is preached big time in civilian EMS and the safety of the medic comes first...totally ass backwards from what I spent all those years in the military doing.

Scene safety is #1 priority for a EMT since the 90's. No brainer, your not much help if your a patient too.
I figured out they were not my comrades in arms after one stabbed me after saving his life..

 

[shoots-straight]

Ask yourself, what would you have done if you were the LEO approaching the vehicle?

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[dannyb278]

Not really familiar with the source, and would like to see this discussion played out on a wider reaching venue, but here is a short but decent article concerning the Bundys vs Western Hunters.

http://www.thetrace.org/2016/01/hunters-gun-owners-against-bundy-standoff/