Losses at the Forest Service

[Justabirdwatcher]

I wonder if Price ever had a job besides academia.

My 30+ year of corporate life refutes Price’s model.

Even if it were true, there are massive corporations that get a complete 'pass' by most folks simply because they are privately owned and can carefully manage the information their customers and shareholders see. My brother worked for Boeing and BMW, among others, and the stories he had about waste and lazy employees rivaled anything that ever came out of a fox news anchor's mouth about federal workers. People are people anywhere they work. Lazy people will be lazy. Hard workers will work hard. It matters not the employer. What matters is how they were raised.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

I had a friend and former coworker get the axe in the Chugach area. She got cut because she's a new hire but the reason she moved to Alaska from North Carolina is because her Army ranger husband was transferred there so she's not new to the field just this particular job. It's a complicated place to be in knowing I voted for the guy that appointed the people who cut her job but it's not as simple as me saying I regret my decision or I should have voted for the other side because I could have just as easily been friends with a pipeline worker 4 years ago that got cut on day one of Biden's presidency. As a previous post said I'd like to see more in the field jobs for young people. Heck I wish I had done something like packing mules or clearing trails at 18-21.

You make a valid point. That said, I don't know too many pipeliners who are willing to take low paying government jobs. I worked for decades in an area full of oilfield and pipeline workers and never heard one of them say they wish they had a government job. At 20 years old, they could make more than a gov supervisor with 30 years experience, and they knew it. And it wasn't hard to tell based on what they were driving and towing either. The welding classes in our local high schools were full every semester, for this reason.

 

[BuzzH]

Me neither. Ive ran into contractor campground host and two individuals taking surveys last year.

This is all those that dislike the layoffs and downsizing.

I feel bad for the folks that lost their job, but welcome to the private sector of "At Will" employment. Ive worked 26 years in construction and the energy field and had numerous projects get canceled due to funding, weather, permits, someone else got the contract, etc. The past four years haven't been the easiest on me and I work two part-time seasonal jobs, one 520 miles across the state/WY and carpentry in the winter months (@ 50).

I haven't really seen a lot of significant improvements on FS or BLM lands in 35 years in the west. Overgrazed, dying timber, unmitigated fires, fire/reclamation contractors getting tons of money. I personally see more work on weed control and fire activities from the DNRC than the FS/BLM. I don't see this as a funding problem but a lack of direction/vison and managing a budget.

I've personally heard from numerous govt employees crowing about their govt retirement. @BuzzH

We don't know how this will effect usage/maintenance of public lands or seriously delay resource development projects, EAs/EIS, but we have a uncontrolled national debt that has to be accounted. We can't continue to throw money away on studies, grants, or other subsides. I can't wait until DOGE goes into the DOD, and farm aid.

What do want to know about the great federal retirement?

First thing you should know is that seasonal time doesn't even qualify for retirement prior to 1988. Never mind that thousands and thousands of workers did the job as seasonals, some for decades, most working more than 40 hours per week at low level/pay positions marking timber, fighting fire, etc. None of that time counts toward retirement, no 401, no nothing.

Also, up until just recently, these full time seasonals didn't even get health insurance. Took about a decade of lobbying D.C. to get that basic benefit (thanks to the worthless Union that @Treeshark says does nothing), but still nothing toward retirement for seasonals.

I know a lot of employees that punched in 20+ years and don't receive anything in pension for that work, pretty stellar huh?

Lets say you did luck out after say, 10 years of being a seasonal and found yourself a permanent job, either a PSE or PFT position.

You qualify for FERS retirement, MRA for most people is 57 with 30 years of service or age 60 and 20 years of service to qualify for retirement. Your retirement is based off high 3 years of pay. So, I'll use the majority of the folks I work with as an example, they are all mostly gs-9s and most will reach step 10 if their bodies can hold to 57, but most will have to work to 60 at least. High 3 with location pay gs-9 step 10, maybe 80K a year. Most will have less than 30 years most likely, so multiplier is 1.0 per year of service. But assuming 30% of 80K, advanced math: 24K a year, or 2k per month.

Deduct 20% for taxes, $400 month for insurance....$1200 a month pension to pocket or a whopping 14.4K a year.

Yes, under FERS you get the SS offset until age 62 if you retire mra+30 or 60+20 ...formula for that (google it) but say 70-75% of what you would get at age 62. Say another 1000/month, maybe 800 to pocket. Round it to another 10K...less than 25K a year. That number would increase at 62 if you decide to take SS then. Still likely less than 30K a year for 30 years of service.

Only other benefit is the TSP (think 401), that is a 3% match dollar for dollar, another 2% 50 cents on the dollar. Depending on salary, contributions, how its invested, etc. For me, that will be the largest part of my retirement since I was in the great position to invest 25% of my gross income since being eligible. Most people I work with probably contribute 5-10%. Keep in mind that 20% of that was MY money.

When you start drawing tsp at age 59 1/2 withdrawls on TSP is taxed by federal law at 20%.

Are you seeing the "greatness" yet?

The biggest benefit by far is the health insurance, second is the TSP which is only true if you've invested wayyyyy past the 5% match, tied for 3 and 4 is SS and pension.

Also keep in mind that most 9's were hired on career ladder positions 5-7-9, meaning they did a year as a 5, a year as a 7, and year as a 9 to get there.

I can't speak to all federal positions but the one I do beats people up pretty bad, has even killed people that I worked with. Don't like to get into details or even talk about it, because it still bothers me a lot, but a plane crash, a bad encounter with a grizzly which are 2 of the constant risks we face. Not to mention riding ATV's, dirt bikes, horses/mules, vehicles, all the shit that can kill you in the woods, crazy folks in the woods, etc. etc. We've had many close calls, but considering the amount of work we do, its impressive we haven't had more bad days. A vast majority of our staff are pretty much full time field people, meaning we're out in all kinds of weather. Our field packs are 35-42 pounds standard including 2 quarts of water and an apple and a sandwich. The places we visit are across all ownerships across the entire U.S. and U.S. territories. Field locations are found roughly every 3.5 miles on a random grid. Meaning, you don't have a choice where these things are located and most are not in real friendly places. Since these locations are so spread out, extensive travel is necessary and because the unit I work covers 8 states, its not uncommon to be traveling away from home a majority of the season.

Lots of the field locations require long backpacking trips, lugging the required 35-42 pounds of gear, plus everything for extended stays. While backpacking sounds fun on vacation, its a whole different thing when you're doing it for several weeks a years for decades. The wear and tear on your knees, back, ankles, hips, etc. are real. Not to mention the risk involved with the other means we use to get to these locations...all of which can cause a real bad day, right quick like.

Nobody I work with complains, but we are constantly aware that all of us are one bad step from a career ending injury.

There's a reason only a handful of the people I started working with on my current job are still around after 29 years, its not for everybody, and frankly not many people can do it, in particular for any length of time.

But, hey, the pay is mediocre, hours long, get to be away from home a lot, and you get a 14K a year pension if you can make it 30 years if your body holds out!

Feel free to ask any other questions.

 

[brymoore]

Even if it were true, there are massive corporations that get a complete 'pass' by most folks simply because they are privately owned and can carefully manage the information their customers and shareholders see. My brother worked for Boeing and BMW, among others, and the stories he had about waste and lazy employees rivaled anything that ever came out of a fox news anchor's mouth about federal workers. People are people anywhere they work. Lazy people will be lazy. Hard workers will work hard. It matters not the employer. What matters is how they were raised.

Not my experience over four companies. A guy in my group was terminated last year for non performance. He was hired two years prior, put on a performance plan after 18 months with an end date. My company is massive with 70k employees.

I’ve seen plenty of other non performers separated. There’s typically a two grace period before the separation process starts.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Not my experience over four companies. A guy in my group was terminated last year for non performance. He was hired two years prior, put on a performance plan after 18 months with an end date. My company is massive with 70k employees.

I’ve seen plenty of other non performers separated. There’s typically a two grace period before the separation process starts.

There is 100% room for improvement in this area in the public sector. I will not argue otherwise. But the suggestion by so many that privatization is the answer is simply flawed. Most people know that the larger an organization, the less efficient it is.

 

[Nick87]

You make a valid point. That said, I don't know too many pipeliners who are willing to take low paying government jobs. I worked for decades in an area full of oilfield and pipeline workers and never heard one of them say they wish they had a government job. At 20 years old, they could make more than a gov supervisor with 30 years experience, and they knew it. And it wasn't hard to tell based on what they were driving and towing either. The welding classes in our local high schools were full every semester, for this reason.

Why would they want to take a lower paying job if they like the job they're doing?

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Why would they want to take a lower paying job if they like the job they're doing?

My comment was in response to a comment about how volatile some professions are (oil field, construction, etc.). My point is that in many parts of the country, the public sector cannot compete with the private sector when it comes to hiring. Not even close. Those folks look at the pay and benefits of public sector jobs and usually start laughing as they are saying "no thanks."

 

[Nick87]

My comment was in response to a comment about how volatile some professions are (oil field, construction, etc.). My point is that in many parts of the country, the public sector cannot compete with the private sector when it comes to hiring. Not even close. Those folks look at the pay and benefits of public sector jobs and usually start laughing as they are saying "no thanks."

Some jobs are definitely more volatile than others. Everyone needs to have a back up plan. Hopefully those effected last week did.

 

[Rie Bread]

The dead wood will fall.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Some jobs are definitely more volatile than others. Everyone needs to have a back up plan. Hopefully those effected last week did.

Hopefully so, but I'm not sure why anyone who just landed a new job, moved across the country (for a low paying service job) and earned high performance ratings only to be fired overnight without notice or cause, would have been that concerned about a backup plan. What happened on Friday was criminal, inhumane, thoughtless, careless, and 100% not in the best interest of the customer or long term health of any agency. But that's not what any of this is about. What we saw Friday had nothing to do with efficiency or saving money. It was purely mean-spirited political theater at the expense of a whole lot of hard working, middle to lower class families. Let's quit acting like it was anything else.

 

[406dn]

You realize private companies are audited annually. They also have a Board that oversees executive comp. A CEO cannot declare their own raise. But the truth does not make for a good story.

How did that nonprofit transparency work for the NRA?

I ask for basic information from my local city. They make me go through a freedom of information act just to stonewall.

I think you are talking about "public" companies. A company goes public when they decide to sell shares to...the public.

Imagine this, a private company keeps a lot of things...private.

 

[Wildabeest]

WTF are you talking about, Congress passes the laws that forces agencies to do whatever.

Or at least that’s how it’s supposed to / used to work. Over the past 16 years, Congress has become less and less relevant. That trend has now gone into hyperdrive.

 

[Nick87]

Let's quit acting like it was anything else.

Where did I say what it was at all or soemething different?

 

[sclancy27]

Or at least that’s how it’s supposed to / used to work. Over the past 16 years, Congress has become less and less relevant. That trends has now gone into hyperdrive.

That's still how it works. It works the same way with these Presidential Executive Orders. We are briefed weekly on what they are and how we comply with them. We don't get a choice which ones we follow or not.

 

[geetar]

My comment was in response to a comment about how volatile some professions are (oil field, construction, etc.). My point is that in many parts of the country, the public sector cannot compete with the private sector when it comes to hiring. Not even close. Those folks look at the pay and benefits of public sector jobs and usually start laughing as they are saying "no thanks."

You are right. I left the private sector for the public because what I'm doing for the parks matters to me personally more than what I was doing previously but I'm certainly not getting rich doing it. We are understaffed almost all the time because we simply can't compete with the private sector on pay.

 

[Treeshark]

Let's quit acting like it was anything else.

I am inclined to agree. This won’t make any sort of meaningful dent in government spending, but it certainly is political red meat as has been demonstrated by some of the responses here. HT is probably best classified as center-left as far as I can tell, so I’m sure this plays much better amongst the R base.

If DOGE makes legitimate cuts to more politically risky areas (DOD especially), I will have to reassess my opinion on this. Until then, it seems to be mean-spirited and political.

 

[geetar]

Some jobs are definitely more volatile than others. Everyone needs to have a back up plan. Hopefully those affected last week did.

Everyone should have a backup plan. I love what I do and but there is a few numbers in my phone that I'd call if I got the axe today and most of them would be a pay increase. I'm just in parks because it matters to me and I can live with the pay if I'm not stupid with money but I don't trust the government to always have this job available for me enough to not have a backup plan.

 

[Nick87]

Everyone should have a backup plan. I love what I do and but there is a few numbers in my phone that I'd call if I got the axe today and most of them would be a pay increase. I'm just in parks because it matters to me and I can live with the pay if I'm not stupid with money but I don't trust the government to always have this job available for me enough to not have a backup plan.

Yep. That's all I was getting at everyone should have a plan b. And if a certain job doesn't afford you that luxury than that job might not be the right fit for you at that time. Unless your ok with putting yourself in that position. There's a lot of other jobs out there I wanted. But when considering the price of school and what that job payed it just didn't make sense to me at the time. Having a (small) safety net or plan B for me and my family is what matters to me. Everyone's situation is different but just because you want or love a certain job doesn't make it a great career choice for a lot of reasons. I think it took a lot of balls for you to do what your doing by taking the job you did, with a family and all btw.

 

[El Jason]

Hopefully so, but I'm not sure why anyone who just landed a new job, moved across the country (for a low paying service job) and earned high performance ratings only to be fired overnight without notice or cause, would have been that concerned about a backup plan. What happened on Friday was criminal, inhumane, thoughtless, careless, and 100% not in the best interest of the customer or long term health of any agency. But that's not what any of this is about. What we saw Friday had nothing to do with efficiency or saving money. It was purely mean-spirited political theater at the expense of a whole lot of hard working, middle to lower class families. Let's quit acting like it was anything else.

Amen. Matthew 7:12.

“Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.”




I’m tapping out.

 

[mtmuley]

View attachment 360861I’m tapping out.

Dang you. Off to the store. mtmuley