Longrange OK for some?

[belly-deep]

After reading this thread, I know one thing is certain:


































Hunting season in MT is over.

 

[RUT JUNKEY]

At what distance does an animal have a reasonable chance of detecting you? Pretty ambiguous statement. I've had animals spot me at pretty long ranges (over a mile), and others have no clue I was within bow range for long periods of time.

Not really sure where I draw the line at "long range." I suck at shooting at long range and have a self imposed limit of about 350 yards... I'm perfectly ok with not getting a shot, or killing the animal if its out of my range. Everyone has their own limits, but I think some need a reality check from time to time. Those lost, or wounded animals are usually that check, at least it has been for me.

I find with anything, be it golf, fishing, bow hunting, rifle hunting, etc. There are a certain group of individuals that just can't accept the fact that they may fail, or not be as good as someone else. Hence the reason for having every "tool" in the box to increase their chance of success. The longer I hunt the more respect I have for those that revert to lesser technology, or practice with the best there is. Both are dedicated to their craft.

Last week I ran into a hunter who just missed two "chip shot" 640 yard shots at a bull. He was was convinced it was dead and lying on the hill above us because it was so "close.". It was not. I had just walked down the bulls tracks for about 400 yards, and not a drop of blood was found. He didn't know this, and went on to tell me about how much shooting he did, and how his rifle was built by some dude in WY, how much long range shooting he did, how awesome his rest was, and on and on and on.

He didn't believe me when I told him there was no dead elk up above us, nor had he hit it... I pointed out the tracks where the bull had come from so he could follow it back up to the point where he thought it was dead.

I've had similar encounters in the past. A miss at 100 yards or a 1000 yards is still a miss.

IMO, we all want to compare our accomplishments to others (B&C). Getting in close and killing an animal is somehow more noble than sniping it at long range I guess. Hunting shouldn't be about comparing yourself to others. To me it is highly personal and creates memories that I don't ever want to forget. How the animal dies is usually the smallest part of the memory, to be honest those easy hunts are easily forgotten. Many of my most memorable hunts included huge animals that go away.

Hard to argue this. . .very nice Bambi. . .

 

[tjones]

I'm just grateful this isn't about lighted nocks.

Or crossbows.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I'm saying some shots are taken and described here that shouldn't be.

You can't make an amazing shot if you don't take it. If there's lead in the air, there's hope. Aim high.

 

[MKotur325]

but rather stand in awe of their abilities. Frankly

It's really fun to do that from time to time... in the first precision rifle class I went through, I watched one of the instructors put 3 rounds into about a 20" group at 2950yds with a .375 Cheytac. Can I do that? Not a chance... But that was cool to watch.

The first shooting spot in that course is specifically designed to break people's pride. Here goes me with my 1/2MOA Rifle first shot at 235yds at a 4" steel circle. Super confident in that shot... Boom; miss...(explative deleted) Boom; miss... (another explative deleted) make the correction from the spotter... Ding. At that point... I realized that there is way more that I need to learn about this stuff (right after I got done blaming my equipment...). It has been a fun journey learning about exterior ballistics, still have lots more to learn.

 

[Lawnboy]

"We strongly encourage those who use our bullets or any bullets for hunting to download this target and place it at any distance at which you feel capable of hitting the center of the vital area 9 out of 10 times.
If you can do this, then you’ve proven that you are acting responsibly when taking a shot at this distance. Our objective is to further educate that our bullets are not made to achieve long range kills for the sake of distance. They are made precisely to improve shot placement and are designed thoughtfully to allow higher levels of energy on impact. The distance at which a hunter chooses to apply these capabilities will ultimately come down to the character of the individual and their abilities."

This is an excerpt from Berger bullets "Our Position" article on their website. It's a great article and one everyone should read. I suspect 9 out of 10 shots on their target would eliminate many from their thought of "effective range".

http://www.bergerbullets.com/our-position/

 

[The Hedgehog]

Most of the "gone western" snafus I've seen with a poorly hit animal or miss, have happened well under 100 yards in the timber. Just sayin. That's close.

 

[Big Sky]

My only real gripe with long range shooting is those that profess to be able to make shots over 500 yards, but have never actually done so. A milk jug full of water and a range finder makes a liar out of lots of folks. However, those that can do it, I tip my hat to them, and it's pretty dang cool to watch...even cooler when you are the trigger man.

Not my best long range group, but thought it was a decent 10 shot group at 700 yards, shooting prone off a Harris bi-pod. Milk jugs look pretty big at 500 yards btw, after shooting targets at 700 yards.

 

[MKotur325]

There's nothing wrong with that group! Any details on the rifle? Long action M70 with a Leupy m4?

 

[Big Sky]

You are correct on most of the specs except it was a short action chambered for .308 Winchester. It's been a while since I shot this group, but if memory serves correctly it was a Lilja barrel.

 

[RobG]

At what distance does an animal have a reasonable chance of detecting you? Pretty ambiguous statement. I've had animals spot me at pretty long ranges (over a mile), and others have no clue I was within bow range for long periods of time.

I already talked about this, and I agree, but the same could be said about shooting distance, etc. That doesn't mean you throw up your hands and disregard the issue. If a bozo giving an interview in plain sight of animal he plans to shoot and the animal doesn't spook I would say that is over the line. 1000 yards seems over the line. 500 perhaps a gray area depending on circumstances. Nobody seems to think that is a long shot anymore.

The bow hunting example doesn't work - you were being careful, you had to worry about noise, scent, etc.

I also view it as a conservation issue that will become more important in the future. How many times have you been too far to shoot that huge elk and it got away? As the equipment improves and becomes more accessible it will be easier for about anyone to shoot any animal they see, which will impact the opportunities of the "spot and actually stalk" crowd, the people getting into the sport, and the people who don't have the $$ for the LR stuff.

In the end you have to live with yourself and I think the fair chase aspect should be a consideration but most people just think if they should shoot as far as they are competent. I'm not going to fall on my sword over the issue.

FWIW, I got no problem with giving kids some leeway if they are up to the task. Good for Greenhorn for keeping his kid excited about the hunt.

 

[opyff]

I can agree with a couple of the points that the LR shooters are making but it also adds to some other issues. These guys on tv have the training, the expertise and the money to invest in the proper equipment and training to get proficient at long range shooting, but in my opinion it is also influencing a lot of people to try LR shooting without any of the before mentioned equipment or training which in my opinion is completely irresponsible and unethical.
The country I hunt in you're either shooting at or under 200 yards or you are shooting ridge to ridge in very steep terrain and I highly doubt any of those misses or near misses are ever being checked due to the topography, time of day and conditioning of some hunters.
The greater the distance also comes with a greater margin of error. I've sat on ridge tops during opening morning and heard the volley of 20 to 30 shots from some knucklehead(s) on the other ridge putting as much lead into the air as possible and hoping they knock down their trophy bull. Yeah I've missed at 100 yards just like a lot of people are saying, but there is a huge difference between shooting targets or milk jugs at long distances than shooting an animal, quality or not, that is unless you have nerves of stone which I don't cause I still get excited when I put the cross hairs on an animal, that's part of what I love about hunting. I guess bottom line is, are you prepared, practiced and knowledgeable enough to make a long shot or are you pretending to be and if everything doesn't go perfectly are you willing to do the ethical thing. And one last thought, how is this style of hunting perceived by the public? Hunters are having to fight for their rights every day from the uneducated masses and I can guarantee that LR shooting is perceived negatively by those masses. Just my 2 cents

 

[noharleyyet]

...carry on

 

[kansasdad]

"We strongly encourage those who use our bullets or any bullets for hunting to download this target and place it at any distance at which you feel capable of hitting the center of the vital area 9 out of 10 times.
If you can do this, then you’ve proven that you are acting responsibly when taking a shot at this distance. Our objective is to further educate that our bullets are not made to achieve long range kills for the sake of distance. They are made precisely to improve shot placement and are designed thoughtfully to allow higher levels of energy on impact. The distance at which a hunter chooses to apply these capabilities will ultimately come down to the character of the individual and their abilities."

This is an excerpt from Berger bullets "Our Position" article on their website. It's a great article and one everyone should read. I suspect 9 out of 10 shots on their target would eliminate many from their thought of "effective range".

http://www.bergerbullets.com/our-position/

Thanks for posting this from Berger. Made precisely, designed thoughtfully, hunter choosing and acknowledging your abilities...........engaging your brain before engaging your target be it paper, metal or flesh.

 

[Mudranger1]

That other guy in the picture(Jake)ain't chopped liver either.

I just threw it out there. There are probably 10 or more I would love to go with lol

 

[Mudranger1]

I'm just grateful this isn't about lighted nocks.

Coming to Colorado 2015! BOOM

 

[MKotur325]

If you can shoot accurately I personally don't have an issue with whacking gophers or hogs or does at 1000 yards, but it seem unfair to the other hunters to shoot a trophy at such a distance since trophies are rare. What can I say? B&C agrees with me. Are we loners?

Can you clarify on this? It is perplexing to me how you can come out and say that it's ethical questionable to take Bucks and Bulls at 500yds, but have no issues with taking does at 1000.

You are right that this boils down to ethics and fair chase. Are we not bound by the same standards of hunting when taking shots at game regardless of the animal's gender? A doe is no more capable of detecting a hunter than a buck. So I really don't understand where you are coming from about Fair Chase and precision shooting when you say there are no issues with shooting does at 1000.

On a separate note...

We may read B&C's statement differently. The way I read it; what they are getting at is not taking long shots, but the intent of trying to shoot animals at the longest possible range that they and their equipment are capable of. See the quote from their position statement below, link provided for full statement.

"Position
The Boone and Crockett Club believes the term “long-range” shooting is more defined by a hunter’s intent, than any specific distance at which a shot is taken. If the intent of the individual is to test equipment and determine how far one can shoot to hit a live target and if there is no motivation to risk engagement with the animal being hunted, this practice is not hunting and should not be accorded the same status as hunting. "
http://www.boone-crockett.org/about/LRS.asp?area=about&ID=6B455080&se=1&te=1

In my mind, and the way I read this, as long as shots are taken at the closest range they can be taken from, and they are within our capabilities as a shooter so as to ensure a quick clean kill B&C deems it ethical. The way I read this statement from the club, they are getting at people who deliberately take the longest shot they can just to prove they can. There is a Gigantic difference between taking a 1000yd shot on a deer just to prove you can and taking a 1000yd shot because you have exhausted all other options and you know 100% that you can make a clean, humane kill at that range first time every time. I know there are shooters like that out there, I am not one. I just hope this can help clarify where I'm coming from ethically.

 

[RobG]

Can you clarify on this? It is perplexing to me how you can come out and say that it's ethical questionable to take Bucks and Bulls at 500yds, but have no issues with taking does at 1000.

Yeah, I wasn't very clear. The issue I was getting at is conservation of resources, not so much ethics, assuming you can make the shot accurately. Stated differently, if the goal is to reduce the population knock yourself out with any legal and humane method. Some people even shop for their food but maybe there is a market for fair chase chicken...

Regarding B&C, this is in the link you gave: "Hunting must involve the risk of detection and failure if there is to be any honor in having overcome the superior senses and survival instincts of the hunted. "

 

[RobG]

"Position
The Boone and Crockett Club believes the term “long-range” shooting is more defined by a hunter’s intent, than any specific distance at which a shot is taken. If the intent of the individual is to test equipment and determine how far one can shoot to hit a live target and if there is no motivation to risk engagement with the animal being hunted, this practice is not hunting and should not be accorded the same status as hunting. "
http://www.boone-crockett.org/about/LRS.asp?area=about&ID=6B455080&se=1&te=1

In my mind, and the way I read this, as long as shots are taken at the closest range they can be taken from, and they are within our capabilities as a shooter so as to ensure a quick clean kill B&C deems it ethical. The way I read this statement from the club, they are getting at people who deliberately take the longest shot they can just to prove they can. There is a Gigantic difference between taking a 1000yd shot on a deer just to prove you can and taking a 1000yd shot because you have exhausted all other options and you know 100% that you can make a clean, humane kill at that range first time every time. I know there are shooters like that out there, I am not one. I just hope this can help clarify where I'm coming from ethically.

The sentiment of was also in the quote you gave. I highlighted it. I'm not into the "honor" so much as just being practical about the finite resource. Actually the whole article is riddled with statements about the importance of animals being able to be part of the hunt, concluding with

The Club finds that long-range shooting takes unfair advantage of the game animal, effectively eliminates the natural capacity of an animal to use its senses and instincts to detect danger, and demeans the hunter/prey relationship in a way that diminishes the importance and relevance of the animal and the hunt. The Club urges all hunters to think carefully of the consequences of long-range shooting, whether hunting with a rifle, bow, muzzleloader, crossbow, or handgun, and not confuse the purposes and intent of long-range shooting with fair chase hunting.

 

[HighDesertSage]

It's really fun to do that from time to time... in the first precision rifle class I went through, I watched one of the instructors put 3 rounds into about a 20" group at 2950yds with a .375 Cheytac. Can I do that? Not a chance... But that was cool to watch.

The first shooting spot in that course is specifically designed to break people's pride. Here goes me with my 1/2MOA Rifle first shot at 235yds at a 4" steel circle. Super confident in that shot... Boom; miss...(explative deleted) Boom; miss... (another explative deleted) make the correction from the spotter... Ding. At that point... I realized that there is way more that I need to learn about this stuff (right after I got done blaming my equipment...). It has been a fun journey learning about exterior ballistics, still have lots more to learn.

The longest confirmed sniper kill in history was approximately 2706 yards. That's impressive if he put 3 rounds on target at that distance.