Let the Fires Burn!

[Ten Bears]

Australian wildfires turn deadly

530 homes destroyed, four dead, thousands of acres burned, two charged with arson as intentional and lightning-caused fires hit capital

By Emma Tinkler
Associated Press

SYDNEY, Australia — Thousands of firefighters built fire breaks Thursday, Jan. 23, around blazes raging near a string of mountain villages in southern Australia.

In the capital, a 20-year-old man appeared in court charged with starting a blaze overnight. On Saturday, other fires started by lightning roared through eucalyptus forests and into Canberra, killing four people and destroying 530 homes.

Conditions were expected to worsen across eastern Australia on Friday and over the weekend, with forecasts calling for strong winds that could fan flames and 104-degree heat that would drain firefighters.

The funeral of the first victim from the Canberra firestorm was held Thursday. Hundreds of mourners turned out to bid farewell to 60-year-old Doug Fraser, who died trying to protect his home in the Canberra suburb of Duffy.

"He died knowing that all of his family was happy, healthy and expanding," his daughter Wendy said. "His last 12 months were probably some of the best memories of his life."

In Victoria state, residents of alpine villages Bright, Beechworth, Mitta Mitta and Dartmouth remained on high alert. Fires came within miles of their homes Wednesday before a wind change saved them from disaster.

Mike Leonard, a spokesman for the state's Department of Sustainability and Environment, said fire authorities were working with residents of the towns to ensure they are prepared to defend their homes.

"We will work on containment lines again today and tonight in preparation for what's going to be a fairly nasty day," Leonard said.

Firefighters in Tasmania and New South Wales states were also battling to control blazes.

Some 1,000 firefighters were at work building fire breaks Thursday in New South Wales, where at least 68 wildfires were burning.

Crews also were working on fires that have already burned tens of thousands of acres in the Kosciuszko National Park, about 280 miles southwest of Sydney.

Early Thursday, Dennis Michael Gray appeared in the Australian Capital Territory Magistrates Court charged with intentionally lighting a fire during a fire ban. He was not required to enter a plea.

He was the second person in recent days to be charged with lighting fires in Canberra — a 16-year-old boy appeared in court on Wednesday on five counts of arson.

Neither is blamed for starting the blazes that caused so much damage in the city — those fires were sparked by lightning.

http://espn.go.com/outdoors/conservation/news/2003/0123/1497631.html

 

[Ten Bears]

Seems these folks don't like to let it burn.


Forest Service's response criticized

Critics say Forest Service responded slowly to Arizona's wildfire

Associated Press — Oct. 2, 2002

SHOW LOW, Ariz. — The Forest Service responded slowly to build fire breaks and save homes from a wildfire that later grew into the largest in Arizona history, local officials told members of Congress.

But a Forest Service official defended the agency's handling of the blaze, saying that given its size and intensity, there was often nothing to be done but get out of the way.

The wildfire near Show Low destroyed 467 homes and burned 732 square miles before it was stopped in July. It originally was two fires, the Rodeo fire which started June 18 and the Chediski fire which started June 20.

At the Sept. 28 congressional field hearing, Heber-Overgaard Fire Department Chief Mell Epps said the Forest Service didn't move quickly enough to battle the Chediski fire when it was small.

He said federal fire commanders should have known the blaze was volatile because the Rodeo fire had already exploded under identical conditions.

"Had our side of the fire (Chedeski) been taken as serious as the Rodeo, our losses could have been as small as our neighbors to the east," Epps said.

Firefighters kept flames out of Show Low, home to 7,700 people. But Linden, 10 miles west, lost more than 100 homes, and Heber-Overgaard lost more than 200. About 30,000 residents of several communities were evacuated at the height of the fire.

Forest Service fire plan coordinator Bob Leaverton said all that could have been done to fight the fire was done. At one point, the fire was burning a square mile of forest every minute, he noted.

Republican Reps. Jeff Flake and J.D. Hayworth headed the hearing to gather testimony about the fire response and forest management in the region. Hayworth is a member of the forest health subcommittee of the House Natural Resources Committee.

http://espn.go.com/outdoors/conservation/news/2002/1003/1440885.html

 

[BuzzH]

Ten bears, the answer to your first question is NO, clearcuts dont do the same thing as fire, for many reasons.

For starters, very seldom, even on large fires in dry weather, does everything burn to the point of sterilizing the soil. In fact, on the hundred plus wildfires I've fought, I've never seen any areas that havent shown signs of recovery within a couple years. Plus, on the bigger fires, usually younger stringers of timber are left completely unharmed as well as older thicker-barked trees.

Nutrient cycling isnt even close to the same in clearcuts as it is a fire situation. With fires whats left after the fire is the boles of the trees, the larger portions especially...excellent for nutrient cycling as well as to provide micro-sites for seedlings (what 1-pointer already said). You also get seed release with a fire from species like lodgepole, which you dont get from a clearcut. You also get a more "feathered" edge with a fire, no clear boundaries...just the opposite with the straight edges of clearcuts. I'd argue that the mosaic pattern of most fires is far superior for the "edge" that wildlife like and need. Plus the fire will make way more edge habitat than a clearcut.

Also, if you look at fire on a species to species basis, a good portion of our forests do not have an excessive amount of fuel buildup, in particular lodgepole, spruce, (the moister) habitat types. Those types typically experience a stand replacement fire every 150 or so years. The types that have experienced the most buildup are the drier types like Douglas-fir and Ponderosa Pine. There the fires were less intense but more frequent.

Another thing is typically fires really slow down or dont burn close to riparian areas, clearcuts often times get really close to or right in riparian areas, even though it isnt a BMP to do so, it still happens.

Typically fires have a VEE shape to them, small at the ignition source and spread into a nice V-shaped pattern as you approach ridge tops, etc. Fires tend to leave more standing dead trees for wildlife habitat, clearcuts they have to be removed under OSHA regulation or a large buffer has to be left around them.

Not to mention the timing of when the fires happens is key. Burning a clearcut under prescription can only happen in the fall or spring, I wonder how many wildfires happend in April or November? Not many would be my guess. Also, in some cases the prescribed fire can do more damage if its burned in April than if a wildfire went through in July.

So, theres some reasons and enough proof for me to say without any doubt, clearcuts even with prescribed fire, are not the same, and do not accomplish the same things as a wildfire.

LET IT BURN!

 

[MarlandS]

Let's see here, people who live in floodplains work to prevent the water from damaging their property. People who live in forests look at the view.. Who deserves insurance?

 

[BuzzH]

On your last two posts, who cares what people think who choose to build in the woods. That doesnt do anything to support or not support the science of wildfires and the role they play on the environment. Thats strictly emotion, while not unjustified, has nothing to do with the let it burn policy.

I simply cant and wont feel sorry for anyone who lives in the woods and loses their house to a wildfire...tough shit. You want to live in the woods, take your chances. They were all warned countless times of the risks, if they say they werent, they're liars.

It isnt the Forest Service thats lighting fires, it wasnt the FS that demanded every fire be squashed immediately, it was the PUBLIC. The FS can not reverse the effects of 110 years of aggressive fire fighting over-night. Funny how if they let it burn, they get blamed, if they squash fires, they get blamed, you cant win, but Ma Nature sure does and thats why those AZ idiots are singing the blues over the loss of their homes....

Bottom line, it was no fault of the FS they lost their homes.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Buzz, thanks for the terrific explanation on fires and clearcuts! Makes perfect sense to me.

I've heard that another benefit of those burned trees that are left standing is that they do provide some shade for new growth. Maybe not much, but a lot more than there is in a clearcut!

That's another reason to be against salvage logging.

 

[Ten Bears]

What was it you said? Oh yes,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It isnt the Forest Service thats lighting fires,.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Former Forest Service worker pleads guilty

Barton could serve 12 years in prison for Colorado's biggest wildfire

By Jennifer Hamilton
Associated Press

CRIPPLE CREEK, Colo. — A former U.S. Forest Service employee pleaded guilty to state arson charges for setting the biggest wildfire in Colorado history.

Terry Barton, 38, could get up to 12 years in prison when she is sentenced on March 5. Last month, she pleaded guilty to federal charges for setting the fire and lying to investigators and is expected to get six years behind bars at her sentencing on those charges next month.

Prosecutors filed the state charges because of the damage done by last summer's 137,000-acre blaze in four counties outside Denver.

Barton, whose job included spotting illegal fires, told investigators she accidentally started the blaze while burning a letter from her estranged husband. Investigators believed she started the fire deliberately.

Under the plea agreement, Barton could serve a portion of the state sentence concurrently with the federal sentence.

The fire began June 8 and was brought under control July 19. It destroyed 133 homes and cost more than $29 million to contain in the mountains. The Forest Service fired Barton after her arrest.

"There are many people who were basically evicted from their homes for some time, some who lost their livelihoods, their dreams. A lot of people lost things that can never be compensated for," prosecutor Jeanne Smith said.

Barton and her lawyers left the courthouse without comment.

Ginger Krabbenhoft of Florissant, whose 35 acres were charred by the fire, was upset about the plea and said Barton deserved a life sentence.

http://espn.go.com/outdoors/conservation/news/2003/0113/1491933.html

Well he's not FS, but he is a firefighter:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Arizona firefighter charged in blaze

Part-time firefighter for Bureau of Indian Affairs charged with starting largest wildfire in Arizona history; steady summer income motive

By Alisa Blackwood
Associated Press — July 1, 2002


Two firefighters combat the fire in Arizona by lighting back blazes.

SHOW LOW, Ariz. — A part-time firefighter spurred by the desire for steady summer income allegedly used matches to ignite a blaze that has evolved into the largest wildfire in Arizona history.

Leonard Gregg, 29, was charged Sunday with starting one of the two wildfires that merged into a monstrous blaze in eastern Arizona that has consumed at least 423 homes.

Gregg worked under contract as a firefighter for the Bureau of Indian Affairs and allegedly told an investigator he set grass ablaze so he could earn money as part of a fire crew.

Gregg, who pleaded innocent to the federal charges, is the second person employed to fight wildfires who is accused of setting blazes during one of the country's most destructive fire seasons. Terry Barton, a former U.S. Forest Service employee, was charged in June with setting Colorado's largest-ever wildfire.

That fire, about 40 miles southwest of Denver in the Pike National Forest, has burned about 137,760 acres and was 90 percent contained Sunday. About 25,000 evacuees were back home Monday but 3,500 to 4,000 others were still being kept away because of the fire danger.

Barton has pleaded innocent to the federal charges.

Authorities said Gregg, who made $8 per hour fighting fires for the Bureau of Indian Affairs, was among the first people called to fight the Arizona blaze.

"This fire was started with a profit motive behind it," U.S. Attorney Paul Charlton said.

At a hearing in Flagstaff federal court Sunday, a tired-looking Gregg said: "I'm sorry for what I did." U.S. Magistrate Stephen Verkamp cut him off, saying he shouldn't make any admission of guilt at the hearing.

Gregg was arrested Saturday in connection with two fires set June 18 near the Fort Apache Indian Reservation town of Cibecue. One fire was put out, but the other exploded up steep terrain and quickly spread, threatening the town of Show Low and overrunning two smaller communities.

The wildfire merged with another, started by a lost hiker signaling a helicopter, and became the largest in Arizona history.

By Sunday, the 463,000-acre combined blaze had destroyed at least 423 homes. It was about 45 percent contained by fire lines near Show Low but continued to burn out of control to the west.

Residents who were just allowed to return home during the weekend were stunned Sunday by news of the arrest. "For anyone to do that intentionally, I just don't have the words to describe what we should do him," said Gennaro Aveta, who spent a week living in a hotel after fleeing Pinetop-Lakeside.

Officials of the White Mountain Apache Tribe, of which Gregg is a member, said the fire ravaged tribal land and hurt their economy, which depends on timber and tourists who come to gamble and hunt.

"I don't understand how such catastrophic devastation can happen and I cannot even begin to understand how it could begin with one individual," said Judy DeHose, a spokeswoman for the tribal council.

According to the criminal complaint, Gregg said he used matches to set fire to dry grass near Cibecue. Before one fire was reported, he told a woman he had to get home because there was going to be a fire call, the complaint said.

Gregg didn't expect the fire to get so big, the complaint said. He was caught partly because a pair of his boots matched prints found where the two fires started, the document said.

If convicted of both counts of willfully setting fire to timber or underbrush, Gregg could face 10 years in prison and be fined $500,000.

A preliminary hearing was set for Wednesday. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Washington Hunter]

Ten Bears, sure a Forest Service employee may have started that fire, but not as a part of her job. So you can't blame it on the Forest Service. It doesn't really matter how it started anyway, that area was obviously due to burn, and it would have burned eventually one way or another.

 

[Ten Bears]

The article says FORMER Forest Service employee.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-18-2003 20:42: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[Washington Hunter]

Ok...so it was a former employee. That's even more reason it can't be blamed on the forest service, right?

 

[BuzzH]

Ten Bears, it wasnt the FS, and I knew you'd throw that in. That person chose to act on their own, Barton, was not acting under any order that FS demanded.

Also, the showlow fire was started by a tribal member, no affiliation with the FS. However, I sure wont be blaming the Apache Indian Reservation for the acts of a wingnut employee. But, I bet you would.

 

[ELKCHSR]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Can't we leave some areas alone and still reap the benefits? I'm talking about old growth and roadless areas, which seem to have some benefits to me, as we've documented here many times. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We leave lots of areas alone, they are called "wilderness areas.."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Ithaca, I agree, we dont need to manage all public lands for timber production, etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn't know "All" public lands could grow timber!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Cant we just stay on topic. The debate was whether or not clearcuts do and cause the same thing as fire, not whether or not we need forest products. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It all works together and is quite relevent to the topic at hand because it is one answer to the problem and should help the debate towards a conclusion.
But wait, you just want to have a drum to beat forever... Bad me, I forgot...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Ten Bears, sure a Forest Service employee may have started that fire, but not as a part of her job. So you can't blame it on the Forest Service. It doesn't really matter how it started anyway, that area was obviously due to burn, and it would have burned eventually one way or another.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why not, you guy's blame the guy running the saw doing what he is paid to do for the clearcuts. You also blame the ATV for all the poaching going on.
I am not totally certain on this, but I think it was the FS that started the requirements on Clearcutting. I have logged areas that had been "Thinned" 3 times before in a matter of 40 years... I know this last part is a little off topic...
Buzz, well said and this is good knowledge to pass on....Thanks!!!

 

[BuzzH]

Elkchsr, we dont have enough wilderness, not even close. What is in Wilderness for the most part has a disproportionate amount of high elevation rock and ice on it, in other words not very productive lands. We need a mix of low elevation lands designated wilderness as well, grasslands, shrublands, etc.

Also, I'd like you to back up your comment about me blaming the guy running the saw for clearcuts. If you cant find proof of me saying that, please delete your latest untruth.

 

[ELKCHSR]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Buzz, well said and this is good knowledge to pass on....Thanks!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know where you got the idea I blamed you for that part, if this is what you were refering to. It was compliment for what you had said...

 

[Ten Bears]

made a point to answer WH, and point out that the article said FORMER employee. I also pointed out in the other article that the guy wasn't an employee, but was a firefighter "chumming" for work.

I did this to demonstrate the exact point the ELKCHSR mentioned. It's ok to point fingers at ATV's, but don't even look your way.
Here's another article that would have made it here had it been a clearcut. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Dead fish littering banks of Animas River

Associated Press — Sept. 14, 2002

DURANGO, Colo. — Hundreds of fish suffocated after mudslides dumped debris into the Animas River.

"The mud is so thick that they just can't breathe in the water," said Colorado Division of Wildlife spokesman Mike Japhet.

At least 100 fish were rotting on a 150-yard section along the river, which is home to sucker fish, sculpins and several kinds of trout.

Japhet said there would be more oxygen for the fish as the river flowed faster south of Durango, so he didn't expect more fish to die downstream.

The water near Durango was opaque with ash and debris.

"It's like Hershey's syrup coming down the river," said Cuatro Barnard, owner of Durango Fly Goods.

Barnard said his business would not suffer greatly from the loss because there are so many rivers in the area. Still, as a fisherman, he worried about the potential loss of trophy-sized trout.

The mudslides were caused by heavy rains near the site of the 70,485-acre Missionary Ridge Fire, which denuded the mountainsides throughout the forests north of Durango.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[MULE]

Buzz quote: I simply cant and wont feel sorry for anyone who lives in the woods and loses their house to a wildfire...tough shit
*******************************************************************************

Ya know when Oak makes that kind of statement I just shake my head.

But when YOU. The fighter of hundreds of fires, federal employee makes statements like that It flat out worries me.

I wonder if others in the forest service echo your sentiments?

I think I'll ask around and see.

But don't worry. I'll make sure you get full credit for your statements lloyd.

 

[Oak]

Well, let us know what you find out Mule. I think you might be surprised.

Meanwhile, you can add me to your list as a former federal employee that feels that way. I'm second from the left in the back row. Why don't you ask the other folks in this picture. I'm the only one in that picture that wasn't up on the mountain two days later in Glenwood Springs when 14 firefighters were killed. See if they think that saving West Glenwood was worth it.

Oak

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-19-2003 10:30: Message edited by: Colorado Oak ]</font>

 

[1_pointer]

I do not feel sorry for people who lose their homes whom intentionally built them in areas prone to fire or in flood plains. They new the risks and should therefore pay for the outcomes.

 

[BuzzH]

Mule, yep, I encourage you to ask around as well, you'll find plenty of federal workers who feel the same way I do.

People risking their lives to save a house is bullshit, if you as the homeowner wants to...fine with me, take your garden hose and rake and get after it. But dont expect me to save your house and bail you out of a situation you CHOSE to get yourself in.

What you need to do Mule is fight fire for a few years, making 6-10 dollars an hour and come back and tell me how you feel about it. Attending funerals for your buddies burned up in fires is also a really sweet bonus, as well as no health insurance, no retirement, shitty living conditions and sucking smoke.

One of my best friends, Calvin, a smoke jumper out of Winthrop Washington, said it was really great being on that fire in Glenwood Springs. The part he really liked was seeing 14 dead firefighters and having to bag them up for transport off the hill. All for what? Trying to save some dumbassed houses.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-19-2003 10:59: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[MULE]

So if YOUR house catches fire the laramie fire department should just stand back and tell you tough shit???????