Is rock climbing compatible with Wilderness designation

[David658]

Some places you absolutely need bolts to climb. Nuts and cams only work in cracks. If the wall doesn’t have cracks you aren’t climbing without bolts.

Then climb someplace else.

 

[atlas]

Then climb someplace else.

Not a climber. Also I believe all routes that use trad gear still need fixed gear at the top (something bolted) if you want to repel down. Unless you can walk off the top.

 

[Irrelevant]

Then climb someplace else.

I agree, why does everything need to be dominated by man

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I agree, why does everything need to be dominated by man

Do you even Bible bro

 

[Irrelevant]

Do you even Bible bro

No, I prefer to own my own thoughts

 

[David658]

Not a climber. Also I believe all routes that use trad gear still need fixed gear at the top (something bolted) if you want to repel down. Unless you can walk off the top.

Not so. If you are a competent climber, you can put up a suitable anchor up top. If you cannot rappel down, then hike. If you cannot hike, and feel like you need to throw in an anchor bolt to rappel, then climb someplace else.

A basic tenet of climbing, well it used to be, that you NEVER want to rely on your equipment. Rappelling is the greatest violation of that philosophy, because you are making yourself totally dependent on your equipment.

Far more climbers die going down than die going up.

David
NM

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

Not so. If you are a competent climber, you can put up a suitable anchor up top. If you cannot rappel down, then hike. If you cannot hike, and feel like you need to throw in an anchor bolt to rappel, then climb someplace else.

A basic tenet of climbing, well it used to be, that you NEVER want to rely on your equipment. Rappelling is the greatest violation of that philosophy, because you are making yourself totally dependent on your equipment.

Far more climbers die going down than die going up.

David
NM

I'd put money most climber deaths were from falling down... You don't often fall up and die in the atmosphere....

Sorry couldn't resist a good dad joke

 

[Irrelevant]

No, I prefer to own my own thoughts

What's really funny is that I spent literally hours over the last few days trying to refine my thoughts supporting human domination over wildlife.

Just goes to show there are three fundamental truths in life: death, taxes, and hypocrisy

 

[Sytes]

Just goes to show there are three fundamental truths in life: death, taxes, and hypocrisy

I laughed initially though there's too much truth to this.

We have forest service installed Steel meat poles, hitching posts, massive bridges cabin maintained to continue as permanent structures...

Horsemen rationalize the Wilderness Protection Act as designed for their specific use.

If we wanted it to glorify all that is pure within the wild, not a stitch of work, trail, bridge would ever have occurred.

That said, in the name of Representative Frank Church who was integrally involved in the specific creation of the Wilderness Protection Act;

"My final comments tonight concern the issue of wilderness purity.
Time after time, when we discuss Wilderness, questions are raised about how developed an area can be and still qualify as wilderness, or what kinds of activities within a wilderness are consistent with the purposes of the Wilderness Act.
I believe, and many citizens agree with me, that the agencies are applying provisions of the Wilderness Act too strictly and misconstruing the intent of Congress as to how these areas should be managed."

 

[Beignet]

I’ve had a few conversations with climbers on this issue. Most seemed more into trad climbing and not concerned with the proposal.

Guess I personally don’t have problems with bolts being left in a well-done durable manner, but do have a problem with using power tools to set them.

I dunno, maybe if folks want to set them that badly they could apply for a permit with a placement plan to be approved. Would help keep a bunch of dangerous janky junk bolts from being placed and littering up a wall.

 

[rtraverdavis]

What's really funny is that I spent literally hours over the last few days trying to refine my thoughts supporting human domination over wildlife.

Certainly thoughts for another thread, but do tell.

 

[David658]

I'd put money most climber deaths were from falling down... You don't often fall up and die in the atmosphere....

Sorry couldn't resist a good dad joke

Could see it coming when I typed it. You're welcome!

David
NM

 

[Dougfirtree]

Not so. If you are a competent climber, you can put up a suitable anchor up top. If you cannot rappel down, then hike. If you cannot hike, and feel like you need to throw in an anchor bolt to rappel, then climb someplace else.

A basic tenet of climbing, well it used to be, that you NEVER want to rely on your equipment. Rappelling is the greatest violation of that philosophy, because you are making yourself totally dependent on your equipment.

Far more climbers die going down than die going up.

David
NM

I will not soon forget some of the rappels I did with my brother in the Needles, South Dakota. Middle of the rope laid over an indentation in the top of the spire, then slowly leaning back against each other's weight, in opposite directions, then yelling around the base of the needle while holding myself 6 inches off the ground to make sure we were taking weight off at the same time...

 

[Gellar]

I'd put money most climber deaths were from falling down... You don't often fall up and die in the atmosphere....

Sorry couldn't resist a good dad joke

It’s not the fall that will kill you. It’s the sudden stop at the bottom. I couldn’t resist either.

I’m not a climber, but it has always intrigued me. The bolts are probably much less noticeable then the fire rings and the pit latrines at Americas most visited “wilderness area.”

 

[Dougfirtree]

I’ve heard that in the Bitterroot there are some very anti climbing people that have gone into a few of the canyons and ripped out belay platforms people have built out with rocks and cut off the lowest bolts.

I think it’s more that they hate college kids coming from Missoula than any wilderness ethic.

I believe it. There used to be a very unpopular dude in the Adirondacks, who was known for destroying bolts on routes he climbed.

 

[Straight Arrow]

I laughed initially though there's too much truth to this.

We have forest service installed Steel meat poles, hitching posts, massive bridges cabin maintained to continue as permanent structures...

Horsemen rationalize the Wilderness Protection Act as designed for their specific use.

If we wanted it to glorify all that is pure within the wild, not a stitch of work, trail, bridge would ever have occurred.

That said, in the name of Representative Frank Church who was integrally involved in the specific creation of the Wilderness Protection Act;

"My final comments tonight concern the issue of wilderness purity.
Time after time, when we discuss Wilderness, questions are raised about how developed an area can be and still qualify as wilderness, or what kinds of activities within a wilderness are consistent with the purposes of the Wilderness Act.
I believe, and many citizens agree with me, that the agencies are applying provisions of the Wilderness Act too strictly and misconstruing the intent of Congress as to how these areas should be managed."

'Always an interesting discussion. I like to consider myself an advocate of Wilderness with a big W, but to be honest the stock bridges across the Sun River in the Bob are really appreciated. So ... it would certainly be hypocrytical of me to carp about some small pieces of metal hardware which provide safety for the climbing enthusiasts.

 

[Nameless Range]

'Always an interesting discussion. I like to consider myself an advocate of Wilderness with a big W, but to be honest the stock bridges across the Sun River in the Bob are really appreciated. So ... it would certainly be hypocrytical of me to carp about some small pieces of metal hardware which provide safety for the climbing enthusiasts.

In the same way that bridges are planned infrastructure, it would seem reasonable to have a plan for where bolts are and may be placed, map it vertically, and any additional development would require going through the process. The article kind of touches on this.

I can actually think of instances (chiefly wildlife related, but maybe even aesthetic related such as @neffa3’s example of seeing a nighttime wall covered in headlamps) where we may not want climbers to establish routes, and it would make sense to prohibit or at least restrict it geographically or temporally.

 

[Gerald Martin]

What's really funny is that I spent literally hours over the last few days trying to refine my thoughts supporting human domination over wildlife.

Just goes to show there are three fundamental truths in life: death, taxes, and hypocrisy

To continue with the tangential aside, I
find it incredibly frustrating that the
“dominion over the earth” proponents often only focus on one part of that equation.
A fuller Biblical worldview understands “dominion” in tension with and held in check with the concept of “stewardship” where man is accountable to God for his use of the resources entrusted to him. That includes both good management stewarding the health of the resource and sharing with his fellow man.

 

[Irrelevant]

To continue with the tangential aside, I
find it incredibly frustrating that the
“dominion over the earth” proponents often only focus on one part of that equation.
A fuller Biblical worldview understands “dominion” in tension with and held in check with the concept of “stewardship” where man is accountable to God for his use of the resources entrusted to him. That includes both good management stewarding the health of the resource and sharing with his fellow man.

Yeah, I clearly chose the wrong word. I wasn't saying it really from a biblical standpoint, though that's where you hear it the most referenced.

My reference was centered around the fact that we, collective humanity, view humans and human life, or at least our own life and the lives of those we love, as having more value than wildlife.

I love wildlife but I selfishly plowed it up to build a home. I have two kids, I hope they own houses one day too. We constantly make decisions day in and day out that support our use is of greater value than wildlife.

To some degree both conservationists and anti hunters are in the same boat, trying to mitigate, consciously our not, our impacts

 

[44hunter45]

Lots to digest here.

I climbed when I was younger. Like 1970s younger. Back then The Pinnacles in California was not a National Park, just a National Monument. Zero infrastructure.
We climbed like we rode our bikes. No helmet, no special shoes, and no knee pads. We had a kind of "safety third" approach. If a guy had shown up with a rosin bag we would have dog piled him.

I can hear all the real climbers howling, but not really an extreme sport if you make it so you can't get hurt. I know not having a rope made it a real pucker. If I were free climbing today, I'd be the guy pulling out the bolts. But I'm not, so its really not my fight.

I've been studying 6PPD-quinone poisoning in coho salmon all morning. I get the need to keep Big W pure, but in terms of perspective, its hard to worry about some bolts in a rock if the coho are floating belly up.