Crow treaty rights, thoughts?

[EdP]

The SCOTUS has ruled so like Jwill said, time to renegotiate the treaty. What does the government provide to the tribes that is not covered by treaty? That is all available as negotiating leverage. If there is nothing then offer something else the tribe needs and wants and find a solution.

 

[SoCalHuntr]

American land is American land... it’s all occupied they made a bad decision. But that’s just my opinion

 

[BuzzH]

I don't think Wyoming or the Government have much, if any leverage to be negotiating much of anything with the Crow. Rule 1 of negotiations, don't bluff, easy way to get yourself in a jam.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I don't think Wyoming or the Government have much, if any leverage to be negotiating much of anything with the Crow. Rule 1 of negotiations, don't bluff, easy way to get yourself in a jam.

The fed has all the leverage in the world. They can statutorily do just about anything they want with the Indian situation. They could take away funding, they could take away the rights to run casinos, etc. There is zero interest/will power to act, but that is a choice not a limitation.

 

[BuzzH]

Right, because lawmakers and the .gov have broken so many treaties lately...political suicide if they take that path and they know it.

They don't have chit for leverage and they know that too. IF they thought leverage existed, they would have already done the things you mention.

Wyoming better get used to the Crows hunting the areas defined in the treaty...or they'll lose in court again. Wyoming would have to be a pretty slow learning bunch to make another run at prosecuting a Crow Tribal member when they just got it handed to them by the USSC.

BTW, I told you so on the case Wyoming just lost.

 

[VikingsGuy]

They don't have chit for leverage

 

[VikingsGuy]

BTW, I told you so on the case Wyoming just lost.

Anybody that had read the Mille Lacs case and also had seen Gorsuch's past approach to treaties saw where this was going. And we agree WY doesn't have many options.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Hopefully most are too busy smoking meth and huffing to spend much time poaching wildlife.

 

[ClearCreek]

Hopefully most are too busy smoking meth and huffing to spend much time poaching wildlife.

Oh, there are plenty, they have been killing deer and elk and cutting the heads off and leaving the rest to spoil for many years.

ClearCreek

 

[VikingsGuy]

Let's try to keep the discussion on the legal options and not descend into random population-wide disparagements. Some indians do bad things, some whites do bad things, most of both groups do good.

 

[Big Fin]

Let's try to keep the discussion on the legal options and not descend into random population-wide disparagements. Some indians do bad things, some whites do bad things, most of both groups do good.

Excellent advice, if this thread is to stay open.

 

[sdkhunter]

I’ve been up in that general area like many have and it can be fairly rugged with limited road options... couldn’t WY put up a few barriers or fences in a couple of key areas and limit motorized travel in certain areas during key periods. that may at least make it hard to access from the MT side... Long as it’s not on the reservation I wouldn’t see why they couldn’t?

 

[BWALKER77]

I’ve been up in that general area like many have and it can be fairly rugged with limited road options... couldn’t WY put up a few barriers or fences in a couple of key areas and limit motorized travel in certain areas during key periods. that may at least make it hard to access from the MT side... Long as it’s not on the reservation I wouldn’t see why they couldn’t?

Everyone and their brother has horses on the rez.

 

[shoots-straight]

Actually I find very few using horses here. The confederated Salish and Kootenai tribes have treaty rights in Western Montana that are similar to what's be awarded to the Crow.

They usually stay away from road less, or closed roads and prefer easy access to get their game out. They usually hunt right before archery here and prefer road hunting. At least thats what I have seen.

 

[BWALKER77]

Actually I find very few using horses here. The confederated Salish and Kootenai tribes have treaty rights in Western Montana that are similar to what's be awarded to the Crow.

They usually stay away from road less, or closed roads and prefer easy access to get their game out. They usually hunt right before archery here and prefer road hunting. At least thats what I have seen.

What's that have to do with the Crows?

 

[shoots-straight]

What's that have to do with the Crows?

They are Native American Indians. They have had the same rights that the Crow have. I have observed how they hunt. Take it as my .02cents worth on what to expect. We were talking about roadless lands getting hit hunting wise by the Crow.

 

[antlerradar]

Right, because lawmakers and the .gov have broken so many treaties lately...political suicide if they take that path and they know it.

They don't have chit for leverage and they know that too. IF they thought leverage existed, they would have already done the things you mention.

Wyoming better get used to the Crows hunting the areas defined in the treaty...or they'll lose in court again. Wyoming would have to be a pretty slow learning bunch to make another run at prosecuting a Crow Tribal member when they just got it handed to them by the USSC.

BTW, I told you so on the case Wyoming just lost.

Three years ago I would have agreed with you on the political suicide. Now I am not so sure on that one.

 

[Sytes]

They are Native American Indians. They have had the same rights that the Crow have. I have observed how they hunt. Take it as my .02cents worth on what to expect. We were talking about roadless lands getting hit hunting wise by the Crow.

To add...

Crow treaty rights cases reverberate beyond Wyoming

The May 20 U.S. Supreme Court opinion affirming Crow Tribe treaty hunting rights in Wyoming has reverberated into Montana.

trib.com

Even prior to the Herrera decision, Montana had honored treaty right hunters on public federal lands, specifically the Confederated Salish Kootenai Tribes.
“Court cases defined that for us a long time ago,” said Tom McDonald, the Fish, Wildlife, Recreation & Conservation Office division manager for the confederated tribes.
For male wildlife species like deer and elk, tribal hunters can shoot a bull or buck any time of the year without even purchasing a tag, he explained. For restricted species like moose or bighorn sheep, there are tag drawings for tribal members and bighorns are hunted only on the reservation. Seasons for female wildlife species run from Sept. 1 to Jan. 31, McDonald said.

I believe there is still managed hope for the "conservation" aspect left open by the Supreme Court, as presented in MT's actions related to Sheep / moose, etc. Wyoming still has opportunities. Nothing is final until the Supreme Court sings on each note addressed and "State Wildlife Conservation" is an open tune yet to sing.

 

[OverlordBear]

I think we should start digging up old treaties and pay lawyers to implement those too. How much stuff does our country want coming back up from the 1800s? How many treaties do the crows want to be governed under if we are going to reopen the 1800s law books. So one with more money than me is going to consider this at some point if they haven’t already.

 

[307Fflam]

The May 20 U.S. Supreme Court opinion affirming Crow Tribe treaty hunting rights in Wyoming has reverberated into Montana.
Following the ruling, Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks’ legal counsel and chief of law enforcement issued a May 22 memo to wardens advising them to not cite Crow Tribe members who violate state hunting laws in the Custer Gallatin National Forest east of the Yellowstone River.
The vast mountain region, which extends from Gardiner to the Wyoming border and includes the Absaroka, Pryor and Beartooth mountain ranges in addition to the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness, was also part of the tribe’s treaty area when the Fort Laramie document was signed in 1868.


Wyoming court still has 2 issues to decide in Crow hunting case
Wyoming case
Wyoming had argued that its Bighorn National Forest, where Crow tribal member Clayvin Herrera was cited for poaching a bull elk in 2014, was considered occupied territory since it had been designated a national forest. The high court disagreed in its 5-4 ruling, but it’s up to a Wyoming District Court to define exactly what occupied means. Some areas of the forest may carry that designation, but not the entire forest, the justices reasoned.
The state court must also figure out how to define conservation necessity, another point the state had argued for not allowing Crow tribal members the right to exercise their hunting rights in the state.
Becky Dockter, FWP’s chief legal counsel, said her agency issued the memo in consultation with the state Attorney General's office “in order to not raise any more issues,” similar to what the Herrera case has already brought to attention, until there’s a better understanding of the impact of the Supreme Court’s decision.
“How it effects into the future we can’t say,” she said.
FWP has held no discussions with Crow tribal officials yet, Dockter added.
U.S. Supreme Court sides with Crow tribal member in hunting dispute
Treaty rights
The memo does not open the Montana forest to Crow tribal hunting, Dockter said, rather tribal members would not be cited for violations of Montana hunting regulations — such as hunting during a closed season, unlawful possession, hunting without a license, or failure to tag — because that now falls under a treaty rights issue and the tribe’s regulatory system. Tribal members could still be cited for safety violations like trespassing, or shooting from a roadway or vehicle, Dockter added.
Even prior to the Herrera decision Montana had honored treaty right hunters on public federal lands, specifically the Confederated Salish Kootenai Tribes.
"Court cases defined that for us a long time ago," said Tom McDonald, the Fish, Wildlife, Recreation & Conservation Office division manager for the CSKT.
For male wildlife species like deer and elk, tribal hunters can shoot a bull or buck any time of the year without even purchasing a tag, he explained. For restricted species like moose or bighorn sheep there are tag drawings for tribal members, and bighorns are hunted only on the reservation. Seasons for female wildlife species run from Sept. 1 to Jan. 31, McDonald said.





"A lot of it is not sport hunting, it's subsistence hunting," he said.
"Overhunting is not an issue."
Few CSKT members hunt black bears, none hunt grizzlies or cat species like mountain lions or bobcats. The tribe has about 7,000 members. As many as 900 may apply for special licenses.
In addition, Montana acknowledges the rights of several tribes to hunt Yellowstone bison in the winter when they leave the park, including CSKT, Blackfeet, Nez Perce and Umatilla, Shoshone-Bannock tribal members.


Those hunts along the northern border near Gardiner have raised some residents’ concerns about gut piles that attract predators, unsafe shooting, bison wounding and unethical hunting with animals facing a barrage of bullets when they exit the park.
Montana does not regulate the tribal hunters but coordinates with tribal game officers and law enforcement in an attempt to ensure everyone’s safety.
Gardiner-area residents call winter bison hunts along Yellowstone border unsafe, lobby for change
Still to come
When the Wyoming case will be settled is uncertain. Depending on how the Sheridan County District Court rules, the case could still be appealed up the ladder and end up before the U.S. Supreme Court again, some court watchers have suggested.
Until then, Wyoming Gov. Mark Gordon issued a statement that said in part, "Until these remaining issues are resolved, the State of Wyoming will continue to regulate the take of game animals in the Bighorn National Forest to ensure equal hunting opportunities for all.”
McDonald said fears that Crow hunters will decimate Wyoming's elk herds are unfounded.
"They all frown on waste of meat, that's taboo," he said.
With a limited population, who can only eat so much meat, and with some tribal members raising beef or with access to the tribe's bison herd, McDonald said there's a limit to what tribal members will hunt, as well as who will hunt.
Also, just like across the greater U.S. population, hunting among native people has declined, he said.
"I wouldn't expect much change."

What a joke. The crows are some of the most wasteful, disrespectful, people around. That’s not an assumption either. I’ve spent 27 years dealing with them. They could care less about the meat. They’d come here just to shoot all the bulls, cut the antlers off and cross the border right back onto the rez