Illegal Thermal Use

[DFS]

So you don’t have any issue with someone using thermals to locate game animals and then hunting those animals after legal shooting light?

Or using it to position for a shot at first light.

 

[trackerbacker]

Sir, I think you need to take a moment to recognize the experience and expertise you have decided to firmly position yourself against- especially that of @devon deer . Someone with a better vocabulary than me might say you are spouting opinion contrary to the facts. Huh, looks like I didn’t need a better vocabulary after all.

You, sir, are an abrasive child refusing to accept the fact that this technology offers an extreme advantage that is entirely opposed to the principles of fair chase which are fundamental to the North American Model of Conservation.

I’m not even certain why I’m giving your inane blathering any of my time, but I feel compelled to point out that you are dead wrong in your assessment of the advantage offered by thermal, and your posts make me question your hunting ethics in general.

Wah?

Every tool in our modern quiver is exponentially extremely advantageous compared to that of our games historical environment and predators (yes including us stick throwers)

Along those line, eloquently or in an esoteric manner, enlighten the class with linguistic style that of which tenet of the North American Model of Conservation (fair chase™) one would be breaking by utilizing such a tool?

Explicitly. Tangentially. I'll let you pick.

Because if anything, much like a suppressor, you'll find it runs congruent to the principles and tenets of Conservation.

If however you find it does not, then mimicry must fall along the same lines for the same conceptual arguments you'll make.

As should satellite imagery or digiscoping tools.

As should anything extending, increasing or benefitting the hunters ability in an inorganic capacity.

But, you must look objectively. Unbiased.

That better language for you? I'll wait for the sacred tenets that you espouse are broken by a thermal and somehow not a bugle, digiscoping, escouting, scent control, fancy glass, rangefinders, dog trackers, coon hounds.......(All periods after here are just to be an abrasive child)..............

 

[Lawnboy]

So you don’t have any issue with someone using thermals to locate game animals and then hunting those animals after legal shooting light?

It's currently illegal to do so. That's my point

"Motion-Tracking Devices(MCA 87-6-401)It is unlawful for a person, while hunting,to use any electronic motion-trackingdevice or mechanism that is designedto track the motion of a game animaland relay information on the animal’smovement to the hunter.Motion tracking devices are defined byF&W Commission as remote operatedcamera or video devices capable oftransmitting real time information,pictures, or videos; seismic devices;thermal imaging devices; and satellite andradio telemetry devices.A radio-tracking collar attached to a dogthat is used by a hunter engaged in lawfulhunting activities is not considered anunlawful motion-tracking device."

 

[bigsky2]

Or using it to position for a shot at first light.

That’s what I was meaning, should have worded it differently.

 

[bigsky2]

It's currently illegal to do so. That's my point

"Motion-Tracking Devices(MCA 87-6-401)It is unlawful for a person, while hunting,to use any electronic motion-trackingdevice or mechanism that is designedto track the motion of a game animaland relay information on the animal’smovement to the hunter.Motion tracking devices are defined byF&W Commission as remote operatedcamera or video devices capable oftransmitting real time information,pictures, or videos; seismic devices;thermal imaging devices; and satellite andradio telemetry devices.A radio-tracking collar attached to a dogthat is used by a hunter engaged in lawfulhunting activities is not considered anunlawful motion-tracking device."

Key words “while hunting”. It is becoming pretty common for people to use them to locate game outside of legal shooting hours.

 

[DFS]

That’s what I was meaning, should have worded it differently.

Well I do believe it’s two different issues if you locate elk you start on elk every morning. If you are shadowing elk in the dark to position yourself. Either way I hate to talk about it because if I did either it certainly wouldn’t be fair chase to me and it is happening.

 

[trackerbacker]

Key words “while hunting”. It is becoming pretty common for people to use them to locate game outside of legal shooting hours.

But at that, that very law outlaws many products advertise, used, reviewed, bought and sold here on the regular.

Not one person is recognizing that concept. Y'all are cool buying Irish and Chinese slaves, just not African.

And a lawyer would absolutely decimate 'you' based on the four corners of that law.

 

[bigsky2]

Well I do believe it’s two different issues if you locate elk you start on elk every morning. If you are shadowing elk in the dark to position yourself. Either way I hate to talk about it because if I did either it certainly wouldn’t be fair chase to me and it is happening.

Exactly. Sure you still have to do the work to kill the elk, but just being able to be on elk every day that you’re out is a huge advantage.

 

[Lawnboy]

Key words “while hunting”. It is becoming pretty common for people to use them to locate game outside of legal shooting hours.

So it's legal outside of shooting hours? Nah.....again I say people are going to break the law with no regards to hours or seasons if they want.

 

[DFS]

So it's legal outside of shooting hours? Nah.....again I say people are going to break the law with no regards to hours or seasons if they want.

Wouldn’t it be good if it was against the law outside of shooting hours? Struggling to understand your view point on this one. That way people wouldn’t shamelessly tell me they do it and I should too.

 

[Nick87]

So it's legal outside of shooting hours? Nah.....again I say people are going to break the law with no regards to hours or seasons if they want.

Why have any laws at all then? It's like a paddle lock at least it keeps the honest ones honest. I agree the worst offenders will break the law regardless, but let's try to keep it to a minimum.

 

[Lawnboy]

Wouldn’t it be good if it was against the law outside of shooting hours? Struggling to understand your view point on this one. That way people wouldn’t shamelessly tell me they do it and I should too.

my point is it doesn't say anything about shooting hours. It says hunting and I don't believe you'd get out of a ticket just because of shooting light.
I'm not advocating anything. Make another law or clarify I suppose if that's what you're worried about.

 

[rogerthat]

So it's legal outside of shooting hours? Nah.....again I say people are going to break the law with no regards to hours or seasons if they want.

This is the reason for SB 63. To clean up this issue. So yes with current laws if you turn some one in right now for “scouting” in the predawn dark or position for a pre light shot the wardens are not able to follow-up. Ask me how I know…been an issue I have known about since 2018 and something I have been discussing with fwp. Fwp is on board…this came out of the EQC as well

 

[rogerthat]

my point is it doesn't say anything about shooting hours. It says hunting and I don't believe you'd get out of a ticket just because of shooting light.
I'm not advocating anything. Make another law or clarify I suppose if that's what you're worried about.

You won’t be ticketed currently

 

[rogerthat]

Locating elk in the morning with a thermal would qualify as tracking. You'd get a ticket under the current law.

How could you not be ticketed?

Feel free to discuss with FWP. I have. I have talked extensively with them. 3 directors. 2 heads of enforcement and more discussions with the local wardens and warden captains than I can remember. I have a lot of time into this issue. They aren’t able to prove the case you are hunting. This law is absolutely necessary

 

[rogerthat]

If anything the calendar day doesn’t go far enough. I hoping that gets amended to 24 or 48 hours to ensure this unethical behavior is clearly illegal.

 

[devon deer]

Although it's irrelevant to yourselves I missed off my previous post another very useful and important part.
With the numbers we shoot over here in the UK it's inevitable some will run off, before we engage the services of a man and deer tracking dog the thermal comes into its own.
If it's very cold you can pick up a blood trail, if no blood trail you can cover a lot of area in a short period of time.
We have very thick areas of gorse/bracken/thorn bushes, just a glimmer of heat and you have found your deer.
We have a problem here, last conservative estimate, 2.5 million deer in a country that fits into Montana almost 3 times!

 

[Undomesticated]

We don't preserve. We aren't BHA pretending to be outdoorsman. We aren't liberals out preserving oil sands

We use. We Conserve. Preserve is what opponents wants, because it cuts usage, harvest. Conserve is the wise use.

Correct. Why should there be, what does a thermal do inherently better than rangefinder, than digiscoping, than good glass and a tripod, than a bugle tube, than boots on the ground in terms of magically summoning an animal?

BigFin would be out tons of partners and sponsors, don't y'all want influencers cancelled? It'll help!

Ok. Doing something arbitrary, is grounding both kids instead of the brother who punched his sister.

Heres what's pathetic, mainly of people in support of bans, is they're little people. Not height wise. But emotional, mentally, intellectually.

Thermal, NV, NL Pures, onX, Gaia, 7prc, rds duck down certified 850+ booties, fly in, boat out, ollin riddled vortex's (which I'm thoroughly confused how anyone finds ollin better or quicker than magview aside from forum sponsorship and nutbuddies)..all those are "extreme advantage" like duckduckgoose postulates.

Thermals, to locate, or optically shoot from, I'm not bothered by. That creates no more extreme advantage than having enough money to buy a auction tag, fly in, use onX, grab a 33 nosler AI with a carbon barrel topped with KF.

As the owner of therms, NVs and regular luddite glass.

Hint-it puts you in the field, doesn't guarantee you a kill. Work still needs to be put in.

Anything, modern day, is an extreme advantage, compared to the hunted species historical background. Drop your holier than thou bullshit. You don't like it, or you can't afford it. Most that have therms or NV haven't considered even poaching a barn swallow.

"Extreme advantage".......can't wait for the petulant response. "Welp you know what I meant", "welp what I mean"....duck.....duck...........

......goose. where's your line duckman?

Should outlaw boats for hunting ducks....unfair advantage....Almost EXTREME UNFAIR advantage, like super duper califragilistic extreme advantage @Mallardsx2

Joke. Whiney group here. "....not fair...."

Get better?

If it's an extreme advantage, and you don't want it, don't buy one, don't use one. Seems simple.

Dogs, be it treeing or tracking seem to give an EXTREME ADVANTAGE @Mallardsx2, no more dogs for bird hunting, cat or coon hunting, tracking, treeing. Nada. They've got olfactory vision. Stronger than hoomens. OuTLawEd!!111one

"Preserve" as utilized as a common verb, but you know that. You are deliberately pedantic to be annoying, and your troll effort succeeded. Trolls aren't worth my time.

 

[trackerbacker]

"Preserve" as utilized as a common verb, but you know that. You are deliberately pedantic to be annoying, and your troll effort succeeded. Trolls aren't worth my time.

It appears I was worth your time. It's also important to delineate ourselves from preserve/preservation/Preservationist.

You know why? You know who else is pedantic? Lawyers who fight for whoever pays them the most to 'preserve the resources'/conserve the resources' of any/all aspects of our hobbies and would, for instance, latch on to the key fact you said preserve. Similar to incident vs accident if youre called in front of a judge-you better get it right or accurate, because the law CAN and WILL be pedantic. Judges. Lawyers. Arbitrators.

By doing so, intentionally, unintentionally or negligently, it provides just enough 'burden' (or lack there of) to sway, regardless of 'thats not what I meant, you're being pedantic, asshole' (see? Because he's not a pedantic asshole, but he's pedantic and an asshole) during legal proceedings. Btdt, learned my lesson.

But, go common verb it up with them, see if theyve got your back in this hobby or others you undoubtedly have.

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Preservationists have shut down a metric ton of great offroading, as have, ironically, hunters and anglers in tow (with preservationists). Places that were pure with leave no trace standards to the max. Even accommodating to preservationists. Guess where that went? Go Google Moab closures for something recent.

Preservationists killed a development of mine. Two phases, 50/50. You know how much money was going to hit that town? You know how many jobs that would've secured? You know why it stopped?

To preserve the flow of water downhill, and to research if there's any asinine 1 of 10million chichequananahana bat given the habitat (though not location geographically or hemispherically possible) was suitable for this certain endangered bat.

You think I'm going to put any money on the line when other towns are knocking on the door for investments, and some dbag preservationists with that city wants to research (delay) a project for something already impossible, let alone the impossibly small chance that specific bat has ever been north of the equator, let alone in Iowa?


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Preservationists were RAs in college, teachers pets in high school, and brown nosers in middle school. They hate your fun, they hate fun, they hate, for fun. And I hate them.

You want to preserve your legal style of hunting, go on ahead and keep hunting how you are, and if someone has their own individual legal style of hunting you don't agree with, be it crossbow, thermal, e-bike......just polling the crowd......seems pretty simple where I'm going with this.......go on ahead and keep hunting how you are as chances are higher than not that he's probably as legal as you are.

Now, ethics and morals, only you can decide them for yourself. see, I find people who try to shut down others legal, and well some illegal but victimless fun, ethically and morally contemptuous and petty pansies. Just like the crowd of 'but my Chihuahua gets scared on the 4th of July-signed dog dad'...but ethically and morally, you may have a Chihuahua and see things differently, and confuse, much like preserve and conserve, YOUR ethics & morality with THE (pedantically read as THEE) legality.

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[BrentD]

It appears I was worth your time. It's also important to delineate ourselves from preserve/preservation/Preservationist.

You know why? You know who else is pedantic? Lawyers who fight for whoever pays them the most to 'preserve the resources'/conserve the resources' of any/all aspects of our hobbies and would, for instance, latch on to the key fact you said preserve. Similar to incident vs accident if youre called in front of a judge-you better get it right or accurate, because the law CAN and WILL be pedantic. Judges. Lawyers. Arbitrators.

By doing so, intentionally, unintentionally or negligently, it provides just enough 'burden' (or lack there of) to sway, regardless of 'thats not what I meant, you're being pedantic, asshole' (see? Because he's not a pedantic asshole, but he's pedantic and an asshole) during legal proceedings. Btdt, learned my lesson.

But, go common verb it up with them, see if theyve got your back in this hobby or others you undoubtedly have.

---

Preservationists have shut down a metric ton of great offroading, as have, ironically, hunters and anglers in tow (with preservationists). Places that were pure with leave no trace standards to the max. Even accommodating to preservationists. Guess where that went? Go Google Moab closures for something recent.

Preservationists killed a development of mine. Two phases, 50/50. You know how much money was going to hit that town? You know how many jobs that would've secured? You know why it stopped?

To preserve the flow of water downhill, and to research if there's any asinine 1 of 10million chichequananahana bat given the habitat (though not location geographically or hemispherically possible) was suitable for this certain endangered bat.

You think I'm going to put any money on the line when other towns are knocking on the door for investments, and some dbag preservationists with that city wants to research (delay) a project for something already impossible, let alone the impossibly small chance that specific bat has ever been north of the equator, let alone in Iowa?


---

Preservationists were RAs in college, teachers pets in high school, and brown nosers in middle school. They hate your fun, they hate fun, they hate, for fun. And I hate them.

You want to preserve your legal style of hunting, go on ahead and keep hunting how you are, and if someone has their own individual legal style of hunting you don't agree with, be it crossbow, thermal, e-bike......just polling the crowd......seems pretty simple where I'm going with this.......go on ahead and keep hunting how you are as chances are higher than not that he's probably as legal as you are.

Now, ethics and morals, only you can decide them for yourself. see, I find people who try to shut down others legal, and well some illegal but victimless fun, ethically and morally contemptuous and petty pansies. Just like the crowd of 'but my Chihuahua gets scared on the 4th of July-signed dog dad'...but ethically and morally, you may have a Chihuahua and see things differently, and confuse, much like preserve and conserve, YOUR ethics & morality with THE (pedantically read as THEE) legality.

---

It appears I was worth your time. It's also important to delineate ourselves from preserve/preservation/Preservationist.

You know why? You know who else is pedantic? Lawyers who fight for whoever pays them the most to 'preserve the resources'/conserve the resources' of any/all aspects of our hobbies and would, for instance, latch on to the key fact you said preserve. Similar to incident vs accident if youre called in front of a judge-you better get it right or accurate, because the law CAN and WILL be pedantic. Judges. Lawyers. Arbitrators.

By doing so, intentionally, unintentionally or negligently, it provides just enough 'burden' (or lack there of) to sway, regardless of 'thats not what I meant, you're being pedantic, asshole' (see? Because he's not a pedantic asshole, but he's pedantic and an asshole) during legal proceedings. Btdt, learned my lesson.

But, go common verb it up with them, see if theyve got your back in this hobby or others you undoubtedly have.

---

Preservationists have shut down a metric ton of great offroading, as have, ironically, hunters and anglers in tow (with preservationists). Places that were pure with leave no trace standards to the max. Even accommodating to preservationists. Guess where that went? Go Google Moab closures for something recent.

Preservationists killed a development of mine. Two phases, 50/50. You know how much money was going to hit that town? You know how many jobs that would've secured? You know why it stopped?

To preserve the flow of water downhill, and to research if there's any asinine 1 of 10million chichequananahana bat given the habitat (though not location geographically or hemispherically possible) was suitable for this certain endangered bat.

You think I'm going to put any money on the line when other towns are knocking on the door for investments, and some dbag preservationists with that city wants to research (delay) a project for something already impossible, let alone the impossibly small chance that specific bat has ever been north of the equator, let alone in Iowa?


---

Preservationists were RAs in college, teachers pets in high school, and brown nosers in middle school. They hate your fun, they hate fun, they hate, for fun. And I hate them.

You want to preserve your legal style of hunting, go on ahead and keep hunting how you are, and if someone has their own individual legal style of hunting you don't agree with, be it crossbow, thermal, e-bike......just polling the crowd......seems pretty simple where I'm going with this.......go on ahead and keep hunting how you are as chances are higher than not that he's probably as legal as you are.

Now, ethics and morals, only you can decide them for yourself. see, I find people who try to shut down others legal, and well some illegal but victimless fun, ethically and morally contemptuous and petty pansies. Just like the crowd of 'but my Chihuahua gets scared on the 4th of July-signed dog dad'...but ethically and morally, you may have a Chihuahua and see things differently, and confuse, much like preserve and conserve, YOUR ethics & morality with THE (pedantically read as THEE) legality.

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You have some hate problems yourself. Lots of them. Get some help. In the meantime, Bye! Permanently.