Food for thought on managing predation v managing predators

[Ben Long]

How to Predator-Proof Big Game Herds

Maybe you’ve been there: You’re hunting and haven’t seen a hoofprint all day. Then there are tracks tearing up the snow—but instead of deer or elk, they are wolf, bear, or mountain lion. As predator populations have expanded across the West in recent decades, so has the debate about what to do...

www.themeateater.com

This ought to stir the pot. Feel free to share if you find it interesting -- whether or not you agree.

 

[TOGIE]

i think i agree

i mean, what's the subtle hint here? we gotta manage the predator a little bit too right? meaning the human

i think colorado is gonna have to think about this stuff a little bit, with or without wolves

 

[Big Fin]

That is one of the better articles I've read on the topic. Thanks for doing that Ben. You have gathered some really pertinent issues related to the impacts predators have and brought them to one spot for people to think about.

Studies on predator-prey dynamics talk about most those issues you summarized. It would be helpful if more hunters read that information. They would understand that herds have evolved with the effects of predation and survived just fine. The human presence of pushing herds to the margins of the original habitat, disrupted migration routes, tilted age classes, habitat changes, etc. all have big impacts on how much effect predators can have.

I like that you mentioned the pulse/spike of calving and fawning as one of the biggest things we can do to lessen the impacts of predation. That is a function of so many things. We are now finding that in addition to poor bull/buck ratios and age classes, the climate impacts on earlier snow melt lessens the opportunity for cows/does in mountainous areas to use the slowly rising "green line" as a wave of nutrients. The green wave now goes up the mountain so fast that the females cannot take advantage of it for long periods as they have in the past.

As such, the females do not recover from their birthing/lactating demands as quickly. They go into estrus later and in less consistent periods, thereby resulting in a long breeding period. A longer breeding period results in a longer and flatter calving/fawning season, rather than the big pulse/spike that is a mechanism that reduces impacts of predation. The longer/flatter calving season allows predators to pick off a lot more the of the calves/fawns than they can when there is a short calving/fawning season.

Lots of complicated factors to this issue. Appreciate you writing that and sharing it here. Hopefully hunters and game managers think about such as season are designed.

 

[BuzzH]

Something no archery hunter in Montana wants to talk about is the excessive pressure put on elk for 6 weeks, during all phases of the rut.

How is pushing elk all over the place during archery season impacting breeding?

I agree with Ben's article that its not just as easy as the wolves ate all the elk. Had a discussion with a friend a couple weeks back that turned out not so good on the topic of impact that predators have on herds.

Doesn't help when this is the "proof" he used to try to convince me that the only problem with deer and elk numbers in Montana and elsewhere is wolves. This "proof" was provided by the Montana Trappers Association according to my friend. So, with these "facts" in mind, a pack of 10 wolves eat 870 deer a year...OK. The average pack kills 2.4 deer a day...OK. The average wolf kills about 35 more deer per year than the average mountain lion...OK then.

I think before we can have an honest discussion about predators/predation, we have to start demanding accountability from a lot of the groups that are intentionally trying to spread lies to promote the "kill every predator agenda". There are lots of people that believe this kind of crap...

 

[TOGIE]

reminds me of the turkey podcast rinella did with whats his face

fact is, we hammer turkey's too early in the breeding cycle in a number of states and it's starting to show up in the science it's having noticeable effects, but what an uphill battle to get the seasons realigned

fact is, we hammer elk, and in many places they're not hurting, but the balance is hanging by a thread given how much humans effect them. introduce any other destabilizing factor, be it wolves, another road, another subdivision, an early warm spring, and you can likely expect some cascading effects that we don't like

 

[88man]

If we are managing the deer/elk/moose/sheep/goats we need to manage the predators also. Elk populations stable or expanding in most of wyoming outside the 14 wolf units > I'm guessing the elk/moose population in Wolf zones 1 thru 7 are a fraction of what they were in the 1990's and Elk populations have grown in the rest of the state. Problem being for hunters as wolf zones 1-7 most likely 90% public lands.

 

[diamond hitch]

Nice concepts but it seems to ignore the basic concept of game management. In a natural system as the prey species peak the predator species are increasing and the habitat is degrading. With less food/habitat the prey species start to decline with the habitat but the predator population increases with availability of more food. Near the bottom of the cycle the prey species are starting to recover as the predators are starting to decline and the habitat is starting to recover.

The concept of modern management is to carefully trim the top snd bottom of the cycle through hunting but requires reasonable management of the predator species as well as the prey. Cat hunters are limited unless they guide because dogs are expensive and after they kill a few cats they are more inclined to just chase them. Wolves are just hard to thin.

The result without reasonable predator management starts to look like the north end of the Rubies with wolf tracks and no deer tracks. Eventually they will move in search of food but after devastasting populations. Cats seem to have established ranges. When the food diminishes they move on to domestic livestock within their range. I've lost two horses to them. The young move into unoccupied range such as the towns and don't seem to be too picky about what meat is for dinner. (Keep an eye on your kids and pets.)

Natural cycles don't include humans and are kind of ugly at the highs and lows. When the USFWS told us there were only 265 pairs in Montana. A USFWS predator control agent told me in the field that their best estimate was 2600 and it was becoming the worst ecological disaster they had ever imagined and couldn't wait to dump it on Mt FWP. That was around 2000.

 

[idahohuntr]

Great article. In complex ecosystems it's always easy for the public to grasp the things you can easily see...a predator eating a fawn or calf...and disproportionately point to those as the root cause of declines. Unfortunately, a myriad of other factors such as habitat loss and alteration are much harder to see and understand, even if they are ultimately a much larger contributor to overall population health. Articles like this are great educational tools and help inform not just hunters, but all those interested in wildlife conservation. Great work.

 

[Mallardsx2]

reminds me of the turkey podcast rinella did with whats his face

fact is, we hammer turkey's too early in the breeding cycle in a number of states and it's starting to show up in the science it's having noticeable effects, but what an uphill battle to get the seasons realigned

Mention this to alsmost any turkey hunter from Georgia and they will burn you alive on a cross....

For the record I COMPLETELY Agree with you and studies are being done right now to prove it. Down here (and in a lot of other states) most people only care about 1 thing, killing. Thats it. The blame the hogs and coyotes for the turkey population decimation and take NO responsibility for themselves killing birds. Trust me I have had some VERY heated debates with people about this.

They killed like 30% more birds this season because apparantley everyone was off work because of the virus during the season....I cant wait to see how bad it messed up the breeding. I saw a PILE of hens with no poults this spring.

 

[TOGIE]

Mention this to alsmost any turkey hunter from Georgia and they will burn you alive on a cross....

For the record I COMPLETELY Agree with you and studies are being done right now to prove it. Down here (and in a lot of other states) most people only care about 1 thing, killing. Thats it. The blame the hogs and coyotes for the turkey population decimation and take NO responsibility for themselves killing birds. Trust me I have had some VERY heated debates with people about this.

They killed like 30% more birds this season because apparantley everyone was off work because of the virus during the season....I cant wait to see how bad it messed up the breeding. I saw a PILE of hens with no poults this spring.

and certainly it's complicated - what did he keep saying? we've created an environment friendly to predators and hostile to turkeys, to paraphrase. and that's not necessarily due to not hunting predators, more of a habitat thing

i think there are analogues - not necessarily similarities to the turkey situation - but analogues to elk and deer here. that analogue being the human component

and i would disagree with an above statement that it ignores the basic concept of game management. i think this article just focuses on the other side of the coin; another side of the coin that we also have plenty of control over. game management intrinsically involves the management of humans, not just the animals, not just the predators.

game management can't always mean more hunting

 

[Mallardsx2]

I love to hunt turkeys. I am allowed to kill three gobblers in a season. I limit myself to one. We have turkeys on our property where others do not.

On another note: I am allowed to shoot 10 does and 2 bucks on a hunting license. I only shoot my bucks and they are what I consider mature for our area. If I shoot a doe it is where we need to take a doe. I have killed very few does in the last 10 years. (Less than 5)

Bottom line is that a hunter shouldn't just be a hunter in my opinion, they should also be a Stewart of the land. No matter what state you are hunting.

Oh and back to the topic, I shoot every coyote and hog I see. Regardless of whether I am trying to kill deer that day or not. IF they come by me, they are dying. Down here really only 4 things kill animals - Coyotes, bears, hunters, and cars. Other than that they are pretty safe.

Out west a bad storm can wipe a deer population out by half so I feel it is best left to biologists to set and determine seasons and allocations. As long as they are not setting them based on looking at $$$$ being brought in from tags I am perfectly fine with it.

 

[get-n-birdy]

Good article, thanks for sharing.

Have hunting acreage in prime wolf country in northern mn. Wolves are a fact of life. Deer adapt. Deer numbers on much of the continent are way over carrying capacity. Our backyard at home abuts a private land ag area that is basically a sanctuary, it doesn't get hunted. Everything that borders it does, along with a good sized public area. The deer in the area have adapted and use it without fear of hunters or predators, other than coyotes. But there's so many fawns hitting the ground at the same time in the spring, there's not enough coyotes in the area to eat all the fawns in that 2 week period when 80% of the fawns are dropped. The breeding that goes on, on it is, dare I say epic. The bucks are typically much larger than the surrounding area and rarely leave the areas security. Filmed a hot doe in the middle of hunting season being chased by multiple bucks in broad daylight last fall with little fear of anything, from my backyard. Field was full of deer, bucks and does. One thing was missing for the area, and it wasn't wolves. It was void of a pumpkin patch of perched ungulate predators. There's only so many critters finite habitat acres can naturally support. The deer at home have browse lines on all the field edges, they are far over their carrying capacity imo. Good habitat supports healthy populations of critters. Certain critters prey on other critters that are supported by good habitat. Have one, you'll usually have the other. Don't have a predator on the landscape and the prey species usually adversely affects the habitat it inhabits to the point the habitat can't support it any longer. Ebb and flow, yin and yang. But ag fields left up year round, in areas with little hunting pressure create the appearance of something different from reality. The challenge now is many areas either have what seems like way to many predators because critter numbers lived without a predator for so long, or none at all and way to many critters for the habitat to support, e.g., urban areas with geese and deer populations at way over carrying capacity. Yet areas open to hunting seem to struggle to keep up with demand from hunting. It's a puzzling dynamic, with a common denominator, or lack of one. The demand on the resources with public access for recreation will hit a head at some point. We are loving our resources to death from over use in many areas. The very thing we are trying to escape, we are bringing with us in volumes and quantities that are affecting wild spaces and places that are making them more like the things we are leaving them for. It's challenging, and not sure what the answers are. First maybe we have to start asking the right questions, or at least better ones.

Bird hunters see the constant change time and human disturbance has on grouse, pheasant and waterfowl populations. Habitat changes, and even slow, subtle changes drastically alter the course of how wildlife uses it. Being an avid fisherman and bird hunter, you can't stump sit with great success with finding fish and birds like many have been able to do with hunting whitetails in the east.

Use to think the wolf was a majestic animal in my youth and really liked them, still do, but had a blind ignorance and lack of applicable experience with them. Now after having more experience first hand with them, they are not as wild or majestic as they once were in my mind. Have had the blinders taken off to what they are at their core, a predator that needs to eat. They eat, poop, breed, live and die. If they are in an area, it's because their groceries are there. Have talked to more people who know more than I do about black bears and their affect on fawn recruitment in northern mn and think they put a fair dent in the whitetail population vs the wolf, but that's rarely ever brought up cause it's not as dramatic as the big bad wolf, which seems to fill most of its grocery needs in the winter. And wolves do put predation pressure on bear cubs, young bears and bears in dens. Just like wolves kill mountain lions. Ebb and flow. Predators don't just get a free pass from nature and kill non stop. Many struggle to survive and die.

The battle over the mind set of ideals in regards to predator management feels like it's in its geriatric, infant stage, it makes no sense. It's back'tardsly bizzaro. It is mesmerizingly stagnant and constipated, yet gets into verbal diarrhea debates over policy of either kill them all or do nothing. Both of which seem so comically ignorant, it's hard to stomach or comprehend. Read somewhere recently the comment, constipated diarrhea, seems fitting for the debate over predator/prey relationships. We seem to want to manage with the blinders of ignorance on to our own use, and cause and affects, or human expansion with few, truly wilderness areas left. The resources are struggling to keep up with use, our use. The wolf is a hot button easy target, but really isn't more than a speed bump. It has it's place and needs to be managed, not eliminated, but really isn't an issue if critters have good habitat and are managed properly, if there really is such a thing.

When our deer numbers up north crashed and wolf numbers peaked, had a doe raise a fawn being constantly harassed by wolves and bears from the day it was dropped, into the fall. The doe and fawn were two of only 3 deer I had on tcams all year, deer numbers were awful. That doe was amazing at staying one step ahead of the wolves. We have created a lot of edges and she utilized them to almost perfection. We didn't hunt the property at all that year. The habitat helped that doe keep that fawn alive imo, along with genetics of having dealt with the wolf as a constant for many years before I was here and will remain for many years after I'm gone. Habitat in the end is a very important part of the overall equation. After the wolves ate themselves out of house and home, their food supply dried up, even snowshoe hares and beavers, and most either died or completely vacated the area. A few years later a new breeding pair of wolves showed up with a pup. Far less tolerant and acclimated to humans than the previous packs. Up's and down's, yin and yang, ebb and flow, but it all takes time and most hunters have little understanding of that. The forest health is far better in areas with lower deer numbers, than areas that are so over browsed, it's insane to think of what those affects could some day bring with them.

Habitat is one thing, but managing herds through regulating hunting seasons to meet better herd stability might have to go through some major changes. But change is hard, especially for a group that has paid the bills for so long and has been under seemingly constant attack by people/groups that don't really have an ounce of skin in the game. The issues are not easy or painless, and not without risk of severely limiting opportunities, when they already seem like they are becoming more and more limited. How does conservation get paid for if the bread winner is no longer present or feels pushed away from having a say or when opportunities are so limited?

Lots of hard questions that will need to asked, answered and addressed. With seemingly many looser's, and few winner's. But hunters have a long track record of limiting and regulating their use of the resource when it's been necessary, even when it's been extremely difficult.

 

[88man]

reminds me of the turkey podcast rinella did with whats his face

fact is, we hammer turkey's too early in the breeding cycle in a number of states and it's starting to show up in the science it's having noticeable effects, but what an uphill battle to get the seasons realigned

fact is, we hammer elk, and in many places they're not hurting, but the balance is hanging by a thread given how much humans effect them. introduce any other destabilizing factor, be it wolves, another road, another subdivision, an early warm spring, and you can likely expect some cascading effects that we don't like

Grouse, Turkeys and many wild bird species are getting hammered by west nile virus. In my area fisher cats were introduced and everyone is blaming the fisher cats for our turkey populations crashing. I don't think so in some areas we have 30% the birds we had 10 years ago they basically just vanished before the fishers become prevalent.
https://www.nwtf.org/hunt/article/west-nile-in-the-wild

 

[Mallardsx2]

That story about that smart old doe reminds me of how poor the deer population is in my part of the state.

We had 2 does that had white patches on their rumps raise twin fawns for years at my house. Almost always both fawns would survive.

The neighbors kid shot both of those does last fall out the back door with buckshot and only found one of them to my knowledge....to say I was disappointment/pissed off was an understatement.

Those two does were making the population in our area finally come back and then out steps this chucklehead and boom, boom....now I have some of their young trying to raise fawns and hardly any are surviving because of their lack of experience hiding them.

You wouldn't believe the places those old does would hide their fawns. Literally, right under our noses and up in our flower beds and against or house. We still have deer at our house but almost always they loose their fawns quickly. This year, I think only one fawn has survived. Nature is cruel, stupid people are even crueler sometimes.

Like the neighbor kid said, "Hey, its legal!"

I literally had to walk away before bad things happened.

I miss watching them at the feeder every night but their yearlings are alive and doing well. Their fawns, not so much.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Grouse, Turkeys and many wild bird species are getting hammered by west Nile virus. In my area fisher cats were introduced and everyone is blaming the fisher cats for our turkey populations crashing. I don't think so in some areas we have 30% the birds we had 10 years ago they basically just vanished before the fishers become prevalent.
https://www.nwtf.org/hunt/article/west-nile-in-the-wild

Northwest PA turkey populations got decimated by these apex predators. What a stupid decision on the PGC part. So Stupid. For every set of turkey tracks you saw in the snow there was a set of fisher tracks on them.

Of course the idiots at the PGC say that fishers rarely kill turkeys...lol

A friend of mine up in NW PA found where a fisher had clearly jumped a bird on the roost at night and "rode it to the ground". With fresh snow on the ground he was able to deduce what clearly happened. Needless to say It wasn't good for the turkey....

 

[Northwoods Labs]

Great article. Unfortunately, I think the whole "predators are eating everything" way of thinking is just so ingrained in a lot of people. Was fishing with a relative and we see an otter. He makes the comment, "well there goes all the fish in this lake." When you try and say otherwise, they just look at you like you are nuts. If predators themselves completely decimated populations of their prey, many of these species would be extinct right now, including the predators themselves

 

[Shangobango]

reminds me of the turkey podcast rinella did with whats his face

fact is, we hammer turkey's too early in the breeding cycle in a number of states and it's starting to show up in the science it's having noticeable effects, but what an uphill battle to get the seasons realigned

fact is, we hammer elk, and in many places they're not hurting, but the balance is hanging by a thread given how much humans effect them. introduce any other destabilizing factor, be it wolves, another road, another subdivision, an early warm spring, and you can likely expect some cascading effects that we don't like

Boy that hits home

I have been shouted down several times over the last couple of years when it comes to timing and length of our turkey seasons.

They moved the start and ending date back a week here, starts thw first weekend od April instead if the last weekend of March. You would of swore listening to people talk that turkeys only gobble during the last week of March.

That can’t fathom that they aren’t hearing gobblers because they aren’t there anymore due to over harvest and changes in habitat. Add that in with booming population of nest and turkey predators and it should be as plain as the nose on your face. But nope, we aren’t hearing turkeys because they moves the season back a week.

Sore subject...

 

[WyoDoug]

I think it is a fallacy to believe you can do one without the other. You have to manage both depredation and predators together.

 

[Irrelevant]

Not hunting things during the rut would sure help....

Thanks for the article Ben 2 (@Ben Long )