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Fire Suppression - Good or Bad?

Big Fin

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I subscribe to a lot of different newswires, hoping to find bits and pieces that you will not find in mainstream media. This one always has some provoking ideas, even if I don't always agree with them.

Whether you subscribe to the notion of climate change, or not, the core of this article is the Forest Service's new approach to fight all fires, even in wilderness areas, under the premise that stopping them early will save fire fighting budgets. They know it is short-sighted, but budgets are one year cycles, not the generational cycles of forest management.

Knowing we have 25 years of fuel accumulation I doubt we can ever get rid of these high fuel levels via logging, or other man made procedures. There is only one way those fuels are going to be reduced - fire.

Yet, due to budget constraints, fire is not going to be allowed as a tool to reduce fuels. Suppressing fires now does nothing other than increase the fire intensities each and every year.

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/...-every-fire-this-year-but-at-what-cost-14774/

I know some agency folks lurk and post on this board. Am I missing the boat on this one, or does this seem like a bad idea?

To me, the use of fire to reduce the fuel accumulations on our public lands needs to be accelerated, not suppressed. Suppressing fire on this scale is foolish use of money and a ridiculous idea from a wildlife/range management standpoint.

I come from a logging family and I am all about logging when and where practical. One would have to be in dreamland to think their is enough logging infrastructure in the west to keep us even with fuel accumulation, let alone reduce it. Logging just ain't gonna cut it on this one, pun intended.

If you live in the fire zone, the time has come to take responsibility for your own property protection. I know that might sound harsh for some who have suffered damage and loss from fires this summer. But, people continue building in areas that they shouldn't, making it very hard for firefighters to save their structures. We spend hundreds of millions trying to save property of those who have made decisions, mostly from lack of understanding, that put themselves at risk. Those hundreds of millions would be way better used using fire as a tool.

If we had been actively using fire as a tool, a lot of what we saw this summer would have been less. I am sure that comes as no consolation or comfort to those impacted by those fires. If homeowners understood what risks they take/create by building right in the fire zone, I suspect they would want more fuel management.

Looking out my front steps, I see the Gallatin Face. It has had fire suppression for the 20+ years I have lived here. Controlled burns are hardly ever allowed, as some close to the forest complain about air quality or aesthetics. Many refuse to clear their areas of large trees, as they came to Montana to live in the forest.

Now, we are sitting on a powder keg that some day will burn black as the ace of spades. We will spend millions protecting the private structures of those who built right in the forest canopy. They will demand someone come to their rescue, even though they are often the ones who have cried the loudest when controlled burns were proposed or when it was suggested that smaller fires be allowed to burn naturally. Heaven forbid that any mechanical thinning be allowed near their little pieces of paradise.

Some like to make these fires the poster child as examples of climate change. That is disingenuous. These increasingly larger and more damaging fires are not tied to climate change as much as they are to ignorance, transferring risk/costs of those who build in risky areas, and political pressure placed on agencies.

Maybe some of the guys who have a lot of experience in this stuff will chime in. To me, it seems very short-sighted, bad for wildlife, and in the long run, bad for all who live near forests.
 
Fire Suppression= Bad

Here locally our mountains are dead, nothing but a desert with shade. Nothing grows underneath the ponderosa pine. In 2002 we had the Hayman Burn and now that area is alive! Keep suppresing the fires and we'll have plenty more Waldo Canyon type fires, which had decades worth of fuel laying around.
 
The Federal Government has removed all the risk of living next to the forest - cheap land and they will save your McMansion. We have the same problem in coastal areas (I previously lived in New Jersey and now in Texas). Federal flood insurance removes the risk, and certain individuals reap the rewards. In the case of barrier islands, the island will always be there, just not in the same place 10 years running. No problem until someone tries to build a house there. The result is a major mess for coastal or forest species, and huge government spending.
 
And the fools who buy lots along a river flood plain to build their homes and squeal every spring when flow has to be adjusted from our upstream dams, they get their feet wet and are pizzed at the world.
 
I personally believe it is a waste of time and resources. We should just protect structures (if it is feasiable) on these deals and make sure people are evacuated. I know alot of wildland guys that would agree!!!

It's also one big fat pay day for small agencies that get contract work off of this stuff. Many times you will travel to a fire and be lost in the logistics. I have seen and heard of crews sitting around waiting for days with nothing to do. These rural departments then submit paperwork to be paid ridiculous amounts!

"Some like to make these fires the poster child as examples of climate change. That is disingenuous. These increasingly larger and more damaging fires are not tied to climate change as much as they are to ignorance, transferring risk/costs of those who build in risky areas, and political pressure placed on agencies." Big Fin

100%+1
 
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FYI-if they would just let the SOBs burn we would have less of them all of time and more money!
 
Living in the midwest, between the prairie and the hardwood forests, I don't have any experience with this. I do have evergreens that I have planted around the house and some of these have died in the past year. When they die, I cut them down and burn them. It has always amazed me how quickly the dead branches catch fire and how hot they burn. I would not be comfortable living in an area surrounded by evergreen debris.
 
Just drove from N Idaho(Coeur d'Alene), down to my home in SW Idaho near Boise. Visibility here is probably only 1/2 mile due to multiple fires upwind of me.

I have been thinking about this subject as while I was in N Idaho I noticed the thick carpet of mature pine forests with no significant logging operations for the past 30+ years. We wonder why the grand elk herds of N Idaho have dwindled? It's not just the wolf.

I grew up in N California, sorry, where the only place to find bucks was the few clear cuts and recent logging areas. Without mother nature to thin or logging operations, as noted on here, you just get nice Spotted Owl habitat.

I agree we are not going to log our way out of this and I am happy to use fire. I do want to ask, before assuming, wether or not we have too much fuel. I have noticed some areas in Central Idaho, especially near some headwaters of the Boise River drainages and in the immense Frank Church Wilderness, where some very dramatic fires have burned in the last 20 years and unfortunately are burning today, that the landscape seems more like the moon than good deer/elk habitat.

So, I would agree, if the fuel isn't so great as to sterilize the ground, which is a theory I have heard before.
 
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It's crazy! This idiot knows it's wrong, but enacts this disaster because he want to keep his "FIRE MONEY". He's afraid to loose anymore of the budgeted revenue. So he's using it up.

Fire in most wilderness areas seldom leaves. They burn around in a natural pattern, with low intensities. It's the "Managed" areas that have become more scary. These urban interface areas burn more intense and get out of hand easier. He's wasting our money, and killing our wilderness areas.

This dud has to go.
 
If the USFS didn't require 15 administrators and advisors for every person that sets foot in the field they would have money. I agree that we should log as much as is feasible and if fire is required to reduce fuels and create habitat on the rest of the landscape then so be it. I don't think we can rely on the USFS to make many educated decisions regarding how to most efficiently use their funding, this coming from an ex-employee.
 
There are government programs for homeowners in urban interface areas to remove everything under 8 inches in diameter. You can get 700 bucks an acre. There are a few guys with excavators making a killing around here, but many homeownes dont want things parked that much, they want the privacy.

Personally, I didn't take it either, I did my own when I got my property. I made fire breaks on the edges, logged off a large meadow and have a road on one side and a huge clearcut to the southeast of me. I gotta think any fire is gonna hit the ground when it hits my property, the overstory is too broken to stay in the canopy. I have made it as defensible as you can.

As for the rest of the forest, we have to stop paying environmental groups to sue the FS at every turn. They need to be able to manage the forest in areas that should be managed, not become defacto wilderness. There are good people there to do good work, but they are paralyzed by analysis and lawsuits and budget cuts. And DC needs to understand how special our public lands are and quit cutting funds EVERY YEAR. Take a half of a percent away from the Dept of Defense(something like 51% of the nations budget) and put it into the FS(FS BLM Park Service, less than 1% of the budget?). Hell, how about don't build a couple jets and put that money into our public lands.
 
If the USFS didn't require 15 administrators and advisors for every person that sets foot in the field they would have money. I agree that we should log as much as is feasible and if fire is required to reduce fuels and create habitat on the rest of the landscape then so be it. I don't think we can rely on the USFS to make many educated decisions regarding how to most efficiently use their funding, this coming from an ex-employee.

That is crap, what funding. There isn't any funding. I am part of a fisheries crew that gets paid because some very rich man that loves fly fishing that lives in the swan donates money to the fisheries bio so she can have a crew to collect data. Without him, there wouldn't even be a crew. There is no hydro crew, no wildlife crew, means no field data. There is a trails crew, and a fire crew, and one timber crew being shared throughout the whole GD Flathead national forest. So by God, gotta keep recreation funded to keep trails open, and gotta keep putting out fires because you can't undo what Smokey did all those years. When one of your 15 administrators and advisors(?) (WTF is that, nice term that nobody uses), retires, they aren't replaced, they are all getting "zoned" between districts, which means increased workload with the same pay. Even fire got their budget cut by 600 million this year. Jeezus christ, every phuggin penny is pinched, at least at the Swan District on the Flathead.
So yeah, there are permanent employees, but each and every one is crucial for planning and writing all the EA's, EIS's, and their share of NEPA. Would you rather an engineer write some NEPA for hydrology or fisheries? Or a fisheries bio write up a plan to build a bridge? Which of those advisors(?) would you get rid of? It's bare bones right now.
 
Fin I think you did a good job of expressing many concerns, but I'd like to add some. You brought up the option, though you do admit it probably is infeasible, of logging to reduce fuels. That may work for some areas, but where I worked the trees we were dealing with, Utah juniper, has little to no value except for firewood. Logging won't happen there at a scale that is meaniful. A expert from Univ of Nevada-Reno has estimated that Utah has to clear, not thin, 50,000 acres of juniper a year just to stay static on juniper biomass which is many times higher than it "should" be. Yes, fires can help, but that can be risky depending on local site conditions. Many juniper invaded areas are prime candidates for other plants, namely cheatgrass, to take over after a fire.

So, I typed that to say that I think that fire suppression should be called for in some areas depending on the situation. But, both you and drathaar touched on a the bigger picture. The science is there to be able to manage this systems better, but the lack of funding, which leads to lack of site specific information on which to base management, the red-tape, and litigation often keeps the best management from being practiced. Many with a much higher pay-grade than any I've had are more afraid of public perception and litigation than anything. Resource management via the judges bench and public opinion (your example from the Gallatin) is not going to put things where they need to be.

So, to finally answer your question, I do think fire suppression at all costs and in all places is short sighted and a bad decision. However, until a top down change is made to certain aspects of federal lands management I think it's a safer bet than letting them all burn everywhere.
 
Fin I think you did a good job of expressing many concerns, but I'd like to add some. You brought up the option, though you do admit it probably is infeasible, of logging to reduce fuels. That may work for some areas, but where I worked the trees we were dealing with, Utah juniper, has little to no value except for firewood. Logging won't happen there at a scale that is meaniful. A expert from Univ of Nevada-Reno has estimated that Utah has to clear, not thin, 50,000 acres of juniper a year just to stay static on juniper biomass which is many times higher than it "should" be. Yes, fires can help, but that can be risky depending on local site conditions. Many juniper invaded areas are prime candidates for other plants, namely cheatgrass, to take over after a fire.

So, I typed that to say that I think that fire suppression should be called for in some areas depending on the situation. But, both you and drathaar touched on a the bigger picture. The science is there to be able to manage this systems better, but the lack of funding, which leads to lack of site specific information on which to base management, the red-tape, and litigation often keeps the best management from being practiced. Many with a much higher pay-grade than any I've had are more afraid of public perception and litigation than anything. Resource management via the judges bench and public opinion (your example from the Gallatin) is not going to put things where they need to be.

So, to finally answer your question, I do think fire suppression at all costs and in all places is short sighted and a bad decision. However, until a top down change is made to certain aspects of federal lands management I think it's a safer bet than letting them all burn everywhere.

I think that you described it pretty well. It is probably not realistic with current budgets etc. to have fire control everywhere. Many of the fires just need to burn until they reach more accessible country and let nature take its course. No matter how much fuel control is done, it will never be enough to totally mitigate the fire damage. If things had been done differently for the last 50 years, it could have been better, but now we are playing catch up.

The biggest problem is that everyone wants to encroach in the mountains and have it so that they can touch a tree out the back door. It is an assumed risk to live in timber country, and I really don't feel sorry for any idiot that does not clear a fire break around their place. There was a pic of an older, established place in the fire near Ft. Collins, CO. The fire burned around the whole place and went on, because they used a little common sense in clearing their land.

The forest service, as with many federal agencies, is not awash in employees but are awash in top bureaucrats that just muddy the water. It seems like many of the critical positions are under-staffed and under-funded. The top positions are given largely to political suck-ups that make decisions based on whatever the feel-good politics of the time are.
 
1_Pointer "I do think fire suppression at all costs and in all places is short sighted and a bad decision."

I agree and further think it all depends on location, accessiblility, nearby structures, roads, available resources, etc. Those who choose to build close to or among the trees have the responsibility to be good stewards of their land and to try to protect their structures.

My daughter and her friends with draft horses assisted me in thinning budworm infested trees around my hunting shack and making a green border around the structure. It paid for itself and at least somewhat reduced the risk of wildfire to that small draw on the slope of Battle Ridge. However, if the budworm infested forest of douglas fir starts burning on the slopes of Battle Ridge, it will be difficult to suppress. Mother Nature will likely just have to recycle and regenerate that forest.
 
That is crap, what funding. There isn't any funding. I am part of a fisheries crew that gets paid because some very rich man that loves fly fishing that lives in the swan donates money to the fisheries bio so she can have a crew to collect data. Without him, there wouldn't even be a crew. There is no hydro crew, no wildlife crew, means no field data. There is a trails crew, and a fire crew, and one timber crew being shared throughout the whole GD Flathead national forest. So by God, gotta keep recreation funded to keep trails open, and gotta keep putting out fires because you can't undo what Smokey did all those years. When one of your 15 administrators and advisors(?) (WTF is that, nice term that nobody uses), retires, they aren't replaced, they are all getting "zoned" between districts, which means increased workload with the same pay. Even fire got their budget cut by 600 million this year. Jeezus christ, every phuggin penny is pinched, at least at the Swan District on the Flathead.
So yeah, there are permanent employees, but each and every one is crucial for planning and writing all the EA's, EIS's, and their share of NEPA. Would you rather an engineer write some NEPA for hydrology or fisheries? Or a fisheries bio write up a plan to build a bridge? Which of those advisors(?) would you get rid of? It's bare bones right now.

Eliminating $40 billion in tax subsidies and breaks for oil and gas companies could go a long way towards restoring forests.
 
Is where this is really absurd is in the wilderness areas. The Selway, Frank Church, and Pintlers are at my back door. Those areas aren't in too bad a shape largely because they have been letting those fires burn. Fires don't "usually" burn out of those wilderness areas.

The down side to the "let it burn" policy is all the whining you get in the Root from the people that have moved here. They don't want their picture perfect view of the Roots contaminated with smoke, and they complain about breathing, and eye irritation. There's LTE's in the paper demanding that no fires be allowed to burn. We can't "mechanically" manage those areas even if the value was there. Their putting everything out, in a year that we have had a little over 1007% of normal precipitation. This is a good year for lower intense fires, and this moron is squelching that.
 
As a professional forester who manages a wildland fire program, I agree with your assessment. Prescribed fire (Rx) is the answer to the fuel problem in many areas. The Forest Service and other agencies are tasked with wildfire suppression and the scope of this task devours the majority of their fire budget. If 30-50% of the resources for fire suppression were allocated for Rx fires, there could be a significant change in fuel loads in many areas. The other challenge to Rx burning is the same individuals who build homes in areas they shouldn't be. Many individuals protest the smoke generated by Rx burning, road closures, and the "impact to wildlife" and then complain when their chalet burns because it has a 30 yr rough around it. There just isn't the public support needed to accomplish a wide scale Rx burning program in many areas. In my opinion the two prong solution to this issue is increasing funding for Rx burning to reduce fuels and increasing education about the use of fire as a management tool.

Note, I do not work for the Forest Service. I have nothing but respect for the job those guys are doing, but the changes in policy that need to be made need to come from the top. I have never understood why the Forest Service should be tasked with funding a large majority of wildfire suppression at the expense of natural resource management. Especially when the expense of suppression continues to skyrocket with the wildland urban interface.
 

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