Crossbows During Archery- for a select few

[Jason73]

I guess I would be more accepting of all these stunt seasons(MZ, Bow, Xbow) if they had the same seasons as rifle season. Some guys like bow hunting, I get it. Fine, do it during the general season. Of course it's mostly never been about the weapon used for most guys, it's just a way to gain preferential seasons, units, etc.

After thousands of folks with rifles chase and shoot at elk for multiple weeks on end you would never get to within 40 yards of an elk to even get a shot with a compound bow.

 

[Sytes]

I guess I would be more accepting of all these stunt seasons(MZ, Bow, Xbow) if they had the same seasons as rifle season. Some guys like bow hunting, I get it. Fine, do it during the general season. Of course it's mostly never been about the weapon used for most guys, it's just a way to gain preferential seasons, units, etc.

While I do agree there is a side product for preferential season for archery, I disagree as that being the primary factor. Basically, IMO, archery values the "no orange" and no boom, boom noise. It's a value and limited use beyond the average rifle hunter.
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I do not support xbow as a form of archery. I believe the two hold opposing methods for aim and release, granted both with a trigger though one is simply a rifle that fires bolts, the other manually holds the string with a trigger pressed against the cheek and peep sight pins for aim.

I support "Traditional" muzzleloader though not extending the season, rather telling the staunch archery season to suck it up and lose the last week of archery for a muzzy week. Again, pure traditiional.

 

[Trap]

While I do agree there is a side product for preferential season for archery, I disagree as that being the primary factor. Basically, IMO, archery values the "no orange" and no boom, boom noise. It's a value and limited use beyond the average rifle hunter.
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I do not support xbow as a form of archery. I believe the two hold opposing methods for aim and release, granted both with a trigger though one is simply a rifle that fires bolts, the other manually holds the string with a trigger pressed against the cheek and peep sight pins for aim.

I support "Traditional" muzzleloader though not extending the season, rather telling the staunch archery season to suck it up and lose the last week of archery for a muzzy week. Again, pure traditiional.

I agree the crossbow is not like a compound bow. The main advantage where I hunt is not having to draw or hold a crossbow at full draw. That’s a game changer for me. I don’t support crossbows for archery. I love bow hunting but started bow hunting to extend my season length and 100 percent to be able to hunt the peak elk rut. If they let me use a rifle in September (outside wilderness areas where it’s allowed already) I probably wouldn’t pick up my bow very often. I think most archery hunters do it for the extra hunting time and to be able to hunt the rut. People hunting archery for the sake of using archery equipment are the minority

 

[Ben Lamb]

A few things, First and foremost @MTelkHuntress nailed the issue. It's about politicians forcing their myopic vison on a state agency for personal benefit. When that gets to be the second or third point in this issue, then the real issue at play is lost into the minutia of arguing over crossbows versus compounds, etc. That's precisely what the politicians want - keep the public distracted and push through BS agendas.

Secondly, since 2016, FWP has had the technology matrix available for issues relative to things like lighten knocks, finger releases, etc. That was some solid work between MT Bowhunters Association & FWP relative to dealing with the issue of technology creep by establishing a baseline of what archery should look like in MT, and how to incorporate new technology to help keep what @BuzzH describes at bay, or at least gets implemented in an ethical fashion.

Thirdly, while Molnar & Olschewski, etc filed this suit, FWP could have fought it based on current law and commission authority. They rolled because they didn't want the increased publicity & they were likely directed too by the director's office or the Governor's office.

If you are an archery hunter in MT, Montana Bowhunter's Association is worth the support. They've done amazing work not only in terms of establishing archery seasons, but defending them against political management, up until this happened.

 

[BuzzH]

After thousands of folks with rifles chase and shoot at elk for multiple weeks on end you would never get to within 40 yards of an elk to even get a shot with a compound bow.

Then you're not much of a hunter or woodsman. I have friends who have shot mature bulls in Montana with archery equipment in November, a few with recurves. They're archery hunters, not rifle hunters that extend their season with a bow.

 

[BuzzH]

A few things, First and foremost @MTelkHuntress nailed the issue. It's about politicians forcing their myopic vison on a state agency for personal benefit. When that gets to be the second or third point in this issue, then the real issue at play is lost into the minutia of arguing over crossbows versus compounds, etc. That's precisely what the politicians want - keep the public distracted and push through BS agendas.

Secondly, since 2016, FWP has had the technology matrix available for issues relative to things like lighten knocks, finger releases, etc. That was some solid work between MT Bowhunters Association & FWP relative to dealing with the issue of technology creep by establishing a baseline of what archery should look like in MT, and how to incorporate new technology to help keep what @BuzzH describes at bay, or at least gets implemented in an ethical fashion.

Thirdly, while Molnar & Olschewski, etc filed this suit, FWP could have fought it based on current law and commission authority. They rolled because they didn't want the increased publicity & they were likely directed too by the director's office or the Governor's office.

If you are an archery hunter in MT, Montana Bowhunter's Association is worth the support. They've done amazing work not only in terms of establishing archery seasons, but defending them against political management, up until this happened.

That solid work by the MBA went flying right out the window when they decided that lighted nocks were OK, even though they previously passed a law that "no electronics" were allowed on any part of a bow or arrow.

That's the problem, nobody REALLY wants a limit on technology or much of anything else, and that's proven over and over and over again.

What happened to trail cams in Montana? Yep, legal again all through hunting season.

What happened to shoulder seasons? Yep, now its full steam ahead on public land too. Trust me, there will be lots of people "taking a stand" on shoulder seasons, with a rifle on public land waiting their turn to blast a cow.

People claim they want to limit technology, do what's best for the resource, but IMO, its a flat out lie for a vast majority. And that is precisely what the handful of people that actually do care have to work with...and why its so difficult to get even simple, common sense things done.

 

[Ben Lamb]

That solid work by the MBA went flying right out the window when they decided that lighted nocks were OK, even though they previously passed a law that "no electronics" were allowed on any part of a bow or arrow.

That's the problem, nobody REALLY wants a limit on technology or much of anything else, and that's proven over and over and over again.

What happened to trail cams in Montana? Yep, legal again all through hunting season.

What happened to shoulder seasons? Yep, now its full steam ahead on public land too. Trust me, there will be lots of people "taking a stand" on shoulder seasons, with a rifle on public land waiting their turn to blast a cow.

People claim they want to limit technology, do what's best for the resource, but IMO, its a flat out lie for a vast majority. And that is precisely what the handful of people that actually do care have to work with...and why its so difficult to get even simple, common sense things done.

Way to prove the first point, buddy.

 

[Ben Lamb]

That's a double edged sword, because you get things like a muzzleloader season in the middle of December, rather than taking over the last week of archery season.

Perhaps, but that bill was pushed by the National Shooting Sports Foundation and the legislature is going to listen to them rather than local sportsmen. The Commission had the authority to implement a muzzle loader season, but NSSF wanted the press, so a bill was drafted and introduced and you're a commie pinko if you oppose it.

 

[BuzzH]

Way to prove the first point, buddy.

Don't worry about limits on technology then MBA, that you'll later cave on, so we can deal with the real problems.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Don't worry about limits on technology then so we can deal with the real problems.

Basically. I'm less concerned about crossbows during archery than I am winning the war that the Governor of MT is starting against resident hunters & scientific management of wildlife.

Fighting the agency over crossbows is a losing battle. Building a better mousetrap for elk hunting puts FWP & the Governor's office on defense, rather than offense.

F' defense. Let's lay siege to the citadel.

 

[Ben Lamb]

You're absolutely right.

However, from my understanding the original proposal was for the muzzleloader season to take place in early October. The bowhunting groups made a deal with the sponsor to support the bill if the season was moved out of their archery season. So they moved the season to the middle of December and received almost no pushback.

I hadn't heard that. That sucks.

 

[BuzzH]

I hadn't heard that. That sucks.

That's typical of looking out for yourself.

Same reason there's still 5 b tags available to archery hunters in the river bottoms near Missoula, Hamilton, etc. in spite of EHD, development, and about 1/4 of the deer there used to be in those river bottoms.

As long as its not me and my season, and what I like to hunt with, that suffers, I could care less about the wildlife and those other guys.

Those are the symptoms of the huge problem you (and I) want to cure, and the reason its so hard to do.

 

[bigsky2]

You're absolutely right.

However, from my understanding the original proposal was for the muzzleloader season to take place in early October. The bowhunting groups made a deal with the sponsor to support the bill if the season was moved out of their archery season. So they moved the season to the middle of December and received almost no pushback.

I'm not sure what bowhunting groups you are referring to, but it wasn't MBA. I am on the board and I was very much against a muzzleloader season in December.

 

[BuzzH]

I'm not sure what bowhunting groups you are referring to, but it wasn't MBA. I am on the board and I was very much against a muzzleloader season in December.

How about the MBA makes a push to lay off elk and deer in October to give them time to move back on public land?

 

[schmalts]

Couple things.

First off, I don't like the idea of anyone suing the MTFWP over this particular issue. That isn't a defense of the MTFWP, as they couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper sack. It's just the lack of working through the correct channels to get something like a crossbow season. Should have to go through the public process, commission, etc.

That said, I also see very little difference between a crossbow that can shoot 60-80 yards and a compound that can do the same. I mean, anyone shooting a compound these days actually NOT use a trigger release? Anyone shooting less than 75% let-off? Anyone shooting anything but carbon arrows? Cams? Sights?

I say the "archery" hunters have caused this problem when the only difference in modern compounds and crossbows is one is held vertically with 10-25% of the draw weight, the other 100% let-off and held horizontally.

The line between the two is so thin, I don't believe "archery" hunters are going to be able to hold off legalizing crossbows across the country.

There's a price to pay for advancements in technology and the compound guys never gave a chit when they ruined the intent of the early guys shooting traditional equipment. They pretty much told the traditional guys to suck it up and deal with it, us compound guys built a better mouse trap. If you don't like it, buy a compound is what I heard.

Now that their ox is being gored, they want to "limit" crossbows.

Hypocrites...

I agree with most what you said about bows VS crossbows, but not all. What I hated about Wisconsin going to crossbow for anyone was that now anyone can take up archery with zero time invested in practicing to become a a good archer. Get a crossbow, take it out of the box and sight it in and head to the stand. Bow, get it, figure out your stance and form, practice like crazy to build up repetition and build more muscle to pull back more draw weight and have less shakes to be accurate. When WI opened crossbows up to anyone it just made the weekend warrior gun hunters flood into the archery season. I liked it better when you had to have a medical reason not to be able to practice or pull back a bow without pain. On the flip side, a lot less animals are wounded with a crossbow than a bow because it is easier to get off a more accurate shot. But in the end, i was mad when they said you could put scopes on Muzzle loaders in WI too.

 

[Misguided]

Keep in mind that new technology and different weapons generates income for some businesses and their executives. Their influence should not be underestimated.

 

[Sytes]

I hadn't heard that. That sucks.

I'll make my personal position clear on this topic so as to lessen the typical broad overview and instant branding of a few vocal HT members: I understand the objective of MBA and their position to oppose any strike against "Archery Season". It's their responsibility - in a sense. I personally appreciated Wensel's article. I believe it's a fair unifying means to embrace support vs counter anything at all costs regardless. Take it as you will though this was shared with me when I was vocally sharing on HT my support for adding to or taking a week off the end of Archery vs extending the season.

This MBA magazine (Volume 48 #3 Spring 2021) was shared with me regarding the ardent stance in opposition towards muzzleloaders during or taking from archery season. Shared with me prior to the Regional meetings with Worsech, etc.

MBA Secretary, Jerry Davis wrote when the bill was proposed;
"Also, a bill will have been brought for a muzzleloader season that will most likely be designated to occur during the Archery Only season. As I write this the bill draft has not been written but I hope our grassroots efforts will have paid dividends."

Featured commentary from regional member voices within the article:
Kevin Robinson of MBA (Region 2) wrote the following;
"The fight continues to keep our beloved archery season free from crossbows and muzzleloaders. Bills have been drafted in Helena, and they will pass if nothing is done on behalf of Bowhunters. We must keep our Montana politicians educated and informed about why archery hunting is so special, and the reason to keep it the way it has been MBA was created to do just that. I want to thanks Jerry Davis [quoted above] for all the work he puts into helping our cause and keeping us informed, Jerry you're the man!"
Rick Miller of MBA (Region 7) wrote the following;
"The crossbow and muzzleloader industries are looking to push their way into our archery season again. The potential fpr monetary windfalls in relatively untapped markets will have both groups lobbying heavily. Their loud voices will be heard at every stage of the process. Only mass opposition will hold them at bay. Make the effort, it is vitally important if we hope to keep Montana "THE LAST BES PLACE"".

It was nice to see MBA Member Spotlight article from Gene Wensel;
"Things like crossbows and muzzleloaders (other than flintlock or cap and ball guns) do not belong in bow seasons nor should they take awway parts of the bow seasons that pioneer bowhunters fought for and obtained."

Final portion of MBA from this one magazine;

• "Defended our archery seasons against the "Crossbows & Muzzleloaders" threat throughout the years"

 

[D_Walt]

I agree with most what you said about bows VS crossbows, but not all. What I hated about Wisconsin going to crossbow for anyone was that now anyone can take up archery with zero time invested in practicing to become a a good archer. Get a crossbow, take it out of the box and sight it in and head to the stand. Bow, get it, figure out your stance and form, practice like crazy to build up repetition and build more muscle to pull back more draw weight and have less shakes to be accurate. When WI opened crossbows up to anyone it just made the weekend warrior gun hunters flood into the archery season. I liked it better when you had to have a medical reason not to be able to practice or pull back a bow without pain. On the flip side, a lot less animals are wounded with a crossbow than a bow because it is easier to get off a more accurate shot. But in the end, i was mad when they said you could put scopes on Muzzle loaders in WI too.

I’m a bit surprised at the way so many present shooting a modern compound bow as such a monumental difficult task. I would guess the average adult male could be proficient with a compound out 40 yards with just a couple hours practice. I also question how much experience some of you have had with crossbows, they are not “magic arrow rifles” and even the fastest 450 FPS cross bows are dropping like a rock past 80 yards. If they were that dang deadly there probably wouldn’t be any bull elk left in WY after September.

Regardless, we’re still focusing on the wrong part of the story - a real bs political flex move by a few who think they are entitled to different rules.

 

[WyoDoug]

Legal here in Wyoming. I use one mostly because of three different shoulder surgeries, one more serious for severed biceps tendons and two surgeries for rotator cup tears. I have the cross-bow set to 100 LB pull where the compound was set to 60 pound pull so better velocity. Problem is people who don't really know cross-bows think they shoot like a rifle. They don't. Crossbows got more velocity but still not much good beyond 100 yards. Least I have never taken a shot with mine past 100 yard range.

 

[MTelkHuntress]

..... apparently the case got reopened..... everything moves so fast, tough to keep up.