A-con
New member
Dang it Matt, this was turning into a good old Muslim bashing session, and you had to go and get the Christians all riled up.
Can a good Muslim be a good American
- Thread starter ELKCHSR
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Moosie
Grand poopa
Is that exactly what they believe ? I wasn't aware.
sreekers- Just curious, what does the Bible say about tolerance of other religions? I hear a lot about the verses in the Qran about the intolerance. Throughout the Bible is there a lot of verses dedicated to tolerance. I'm curious, does the word tolerance exist in the King James version of the Bible?
the word "tolerance" does not appear....but
Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Matthew 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:21
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Matthew 5:39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:21
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
MarvB
Well-known member
Matt/Danr, not as much to answer your question of what the bible says about tolerance but more so as that I tend to see most religious people viewing other religions (other than their own) in one of three mutually exclusive ways- as either an Exclusivist, Inclusivist, or Pluralist:
Exclusivism is probably the most common belief among the more devout Christians in the U.S. Exclusivists regard their own faith tradition as the only completely true religion and while other religions might have elements of truth in them, they believe that these were arrived at either by accident, by observing nature, or by following their conscience. Among conservative Christians, other religions are often vigorously opposed because they are viewed as drawing followers away from salvation towards an eternity of punishment in Hell.
Inclusivists, like exclusivists regard their own faith tradition as the only completely true religion but they do not view other religions as wrong; they are seen to reflect aspects of, or approaches to, that final truth. Other religions are thus viewed as incomplete or just partially developed faiths.
Religious Pluralists believe that religions are all legitimate, valid, and true when viewed from within their particular culture and that all faith traditions are deserving of respect.
Sorry to get off the Muslim topic…
Exclusivism is probably the most common belief among the more devout Christians in the U.S. Exclusivists regard their own faith tradition as the only completely true religion and while other religions might have elements of truth in them, they believe that these were arrived at either by accident, by observing nature, or by following their conscience. Among conservative Christians, other religions are often vigorously opposed because they are viewed as drawing followers away from salvation towards an eternity of punishment in Hell.
Inclusivists, like exclusivists regard their own faith tradition as the only completely true religion but they do not view other religions as wrong; they are seen to reflect aspects of, or approaches to, that final truth. Other religions are thus viewed as incomplete or just partially developed faiths.
Religious Pluralists believe that religions are all legitimate, valid, and true when viewed from within their particular culture and that all faith traditions are deserving of respect.
Sorry to get off the Muslim topic…
Sorry I didn't mean to change this from a "Mulim bashing," to "get all the Christians riled up" thread. I have enjoyed talking about this with all of you though, its been fun and required me to think.
JB, the Scriptures you brought up were good, but be careful on the context. Acts 26:18 is a speech that the Apostle Paul is making in his defense to King Agrippa. He is directly qouting a vision from God he had recieved, which in turn makes that the "Word of God." That is exactly what I am talking about, loving somebody into the kingdom of heaven. I am going to get very specific on that one. I believe that homosexuality is wrong. Does that mean that I should go and kill everyone of them, or find as many as I can and tell them that they are wrong. To do that would be judging them, I am not God and have no right to judge the way God can. That is what the last reference you used was talking about. Now, if I have the opportunity to get to know someone who is practicing(which I do), I should love them just like Christ loves every one of us. Because I have cared for the person, regardless of the sin, they may accept the forgiveness that Jesus offers, and be free from that. I can't judge the sin, but knowing what the Bible calls sin doesn't make me judging, simply a messenger. If I convey that message in love, genuinely caring about the person for the person, then I am practicing what Paul talked about in your first reference.
Ok, I am going to qoute Matt. 5:39 again, but from the New American Standard Version, the most literal to translation to the Greek texts and manuscripts
"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person: but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."
JB, the Scriptures you brought up were good, but be careful on the context. Acts 26:18 is a speech that the Apostle Paul is making in his defense to King Agrippa. He is directly qouting a vision from God he had recieved, which in turn makes that the "Word of God." That is exactly what I am talking about, loving somebody into the kingdom of heaven. I am going to get very specific on that one. I believe that homosexuality is wrong. Does that mean that I should go and kill everyone of them, or find as many as I can and tell them that they are wrong. To do that would be judging them, I am not God and have no right to judge the way God can. That is what the last reference you used was talking about. Now, if I have the opportunity to get to know someone who is practicing(which I do), I should love them just like Christ loves every one of us. Because I have cared for the person, regardless of the sin, they may accept the forgiveness that Jesus offers, and be free from that. I can't judge the sin, but knowing what the Bible calls sin doesn't make me judging, simply a messenger. If I convey that message in love, genuinely caring about the person for the person, then I am practicing what Paul talked about in your first reference.
Ok, I am going to qoute Matt. 5:39 again, but from the New American Standard Version, the most literal to translation to the Greek texts and manuscripts
"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person: but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Thanks for clearing that up & welcome to the site. You will find sarcasm a useful device on this board though...enjoy.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Sreekers
I'm not much for interpreting scriptures but I think this one may give homosexuals some wiggle room.........
"but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.""
Just saying.........
I'm not much for interpreting scriptures but I think this one may give homosexuals some wiggle room.........
"but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.""
Just saying.........
MarvB- Interesting view point of religions. Is there anything on the web that further defines what you are talking about. Are these religions or the people within a religion that can be put into these categories? It may be off-topic but still very interesting.
sreekers/jb- The reason I ask about tolerance is it seems the focus of this topic. In order to be a good american, it seems people feel tolerance is needed. What people dislike the most about muslims is their view of being "intolerant" and what to do with those who disagree with the Quran. I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Bible has as much intolerance as any other religious book. I believe God wiped the earth of everyone at one point in time...killing women, men and children. I would think he knew what he was doing and wouldn't do something against his own laws. I realize most of this is in the Old Testament, yet still part of the Bible. I could list verses but you both know them well better than I. I guess my question is...Does the Bible condone in it's teachings to be intolerant in the same way the Quran does? If this is the case, following both would lead to the same question, could a good Christian or Muslim be a good american if they followed the literal word of their respective Holy books?
sreekers/jb- The reason I ask about tolerance is it seems the focus of this topic. In order to be a good american, it seems people feel tolerance is needed. What people dislike the most about muslims is their view of being "intolerant" and what to do with those who disagree with the Quran. I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Bible has as much intolerance as any other religious book. I believe God wiped the earth of everyone at one point in time...killing women, men and children. I would think he knew what he was doing and wouldn't do something against his own laws. I realize most of this is in the Old Testament, yet still part of the Bible. I could list verses but you both know them well better than I. I guess my question is...Does the Bible condone in it's teachings to be intolerant in the same way the Quran does? If this is the case, following both would lead to the same question, could a good Christian or Muslim be a good american if they followed the literal word of their respective Holy books?
Matt, go back and read what the i wrote about turning the other cheek. The Quran does not tell Muslims to do that. It tells them to kill the people of the book, or Christians. How can we be intolerant, when we are told to love, and not to kill? God can't tolerate sin, plain and simple, if that makes my God intolerant, well so be it. However I know he is gracious as well, gracious enough to send his son to save me from my sins.
sreekers- I'm guessing this is from a different Bible. Please let me know if it's wrong.
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.
2 Chronicles 15:13
Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.
2 Chronicles 15:13
Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
A-con
New member
Dang Matt, now your really going to whip them Christians into a frenzy.
It's "Nacho Libera Matt", (he knows a buttload about the gospel)
It's "Nacho Libera Matt", (he knows a buttload about the gospel)
Third Scripture reference, that is God saying this, not man. He is perfect and has every right to condemn me or any person for our sins.
Old Testament to New Testament, that in an of itself is a very long discussion, but here it goes. First let me encourage you to read the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible. Look at what the Israelites did right, did wrong, and how many times God forgave them. In reading Deutoronomy you are reading the Law of Moses. God told the Israelites to kill all the people living in the Land of Canaan because they were an abomination to God. The lifestyles and continued sin brought judgement on them from God, in the form of the Israelites destroying them. Next look at the history of the Israelites and you will see that they did not obey the commands of the Lord, when that happened the Lord judged them. It eventually led to them being destroyed as a nation by the Babylonian Empire. In turn they were allowed to return. This account starts in the Bible, is carried into the Apocryphal writings. There is nearly 700 years between the start of the New Testament and the close of the Old. Jesus showed that the law could be lived out, and that his grace and salvation allowed us to change.
Read all of 2 Chronicles 15, you will see that is exactly what is being said. If the King was willing to follow the Lord whole-heartedly then God's judgement would be spared, again grace. If he didn't then him and his people would suffer.
The thing is our God is a just God, he can judge, not any one of us. His means is up to him. I can confidently say that if a person has not accepted Jesus Christ as Savior they will not be in heave, but rather would be condemned to hell.
I personally would rather serve a just God than one who isn't. If anything goes, then is murder ok? Is rape ok? If God is not just, and so being becomes "Intolerant," then what hope is there in salvation? I can't serve a God who does not set down a standard of right and wrong. If a God shifts this direction and that on sin then I may as well place my faith in evolution, because that argument leaves no place for any law.
Old Testament to New Testament, that in an of itself is a very long discussion, but here it goes. First let me encourage you to read the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible. Look at what the Israelites did right, did wrong, and how many times God forgave them. In reading Deutoronomy you are reading the Law of Moses. God told the Israelites to kill all the people living in the Land of Canaan because they were an abomination to God. The lifestyles and continued sin brought judgement on them from God, in the form of the Israelites destroying them. Next look at the history of the Israelites and you will see that they did not obey the commands of the Lord, when that happened the Lord judged them. It eventually led to them being destroyed as a nation by the Babylonian Empire. In turn they were allowed to return. This account starts in the Bible, is carried into the Apocryphal writings. There is nearly 700 years between the start of the New Testament and the close of the Old. Jesus showed that the law could be lived out, and that his grace and salvation allowed us to change.
Read all of 2 Chronicles 15, you will see that is exactly what is being said. If the King was willing to follow the Lord whole-heartedly then God's judgement would be spared, again grace. If he didn't then him and his people would suffer.
The thing is our God is a just God, he can judge, not any one of us. His means is up to him. I can confidently say that if a person has not accepted Jesus Christ as Savior they will not be in heave, but rather would be condemned to hell.
I personally would rather serve a just God than one who isn't. If anything goes, then is murder ok? Is rape ok? If God is not just, and so being becomes "Intolerant," then what hope is there in salvation? I can't serve a God who does not set down a standard of right and wrong. If a God shifts this direction and that on sin then I may as well place my faith in evolution, because that argument leaves no place for any law.
sreekers-
Joshua 6:17-21 (NIV): The city and all that is in it are to be devoted to the LORD ... But keep away from the devoted things ... All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the LORD and must go into his treasury. When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it--men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
"Deuteronomy 20:16-18 (NIV): However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God."
Matthew 10:34, Jesus clarified his position by saying: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the Earth. I did not come to bring peace; but a sword"
Joshua 6:17-21 (NIV): The city and all that is in it are to be devoted to the LORD ... But keep away from the devoted things ... All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the LORD and must go into his treasury. When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it--men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
"Deuteronomy 20:16-18 (NIV): However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God."
Matthew 10:34, Jesus clarified his position by saying: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the Earth. I did not come to bring peace; but a sword"
Third reference, read Revelation, Jesus returns to the Earth, carrying a sword. He is going to destroy Satan, when he does, that will be violent, after that Christians will get to enjoy spending eternity with God.
Go back and read what I read in the post before, God was passing judgement of the people living in modern day Israel. Like I said before, he may have used the Israelites to impose his judgement, just like he used the Babylonians when the Israelites. The Lord God is just, and his judgement will be passed over everyone.
Go back and read what I read in the post before, God was passing judgement of the people living in modern day Israel. Like I said before, he may have used the Israelites to impose his judgement, just like he used the Babylonians when the Israelites. The Lord God is just, and his judgement will be passed over everyone.
