Yeti GOBOX Collection

Can a good Muslim be a good American

JoseCuervo said:
Always a frightening point in a Country's history when you have Looneys like Curly deciding which religions are acceptable.

Unbelievable.
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So you don't have any opinions on which religions have good qualities? No opinions on which ones are bad for the country, huh?

What is frightening about discussing religions, Jose?

I think the looney is you if you think it is okay for a religion to say that suicide bombing is acceptable.
 
Curly said:
So you don't have any opinions on which religions have good qualities? No opinions on which ones are bad for the country, huh?

What is frightening about discussing religions, Jose?

I think the looney is you if you think it is okay for a religion to say that suicide bombing is acceptable.
Click to expand...

Nothing frightening about discussing religions, it is just the leap you make to which ones are acceptable. Hate Crimes are the next step for that. You got your burning crosses ready? You got your spray paint for the swastikas ready?

I think a lot of things a lot of religions say is looney from my perspective, but that doesn't mean I don't think they should be allowed to say the looney things or live by the looney things.

Why should my beliefs prevent someone from living by the religious cannons they believe?
 
Hoser, The Catholic Church has probably murdered more people in the name of religion than any single source of genocide in history, including the Nazi party in Germany. Records are not exact but I recall reading about the Inquisition during the middle ages murdering some 14 million jews and gypsys accused of herasy and devil worship. The Puritans who settled in this country were no slouches when it came to murdering women accused of witchcraft or seduction. The crusades killed innumerable muslim and jews in the name of God. When any religion begins to preach and practice the reduction of "infidels" and sets themselves up and the single authority on who is right and who is wrong, then the principles of the Constitution are reduced to words on paper. At that time, we should all grab a gun and begin the battle.

Curly, don't set yourself up to decide which religions are acceptable for the country. Rather decide which ideas are not acceptable. Labeling any religion as being this or that is a dangerous precedent. I can't think of a single label that applies to "all" of "anything" other than to say that we are all human and we will learn to live together or we will surely die together.

:cool:
 
Christians in the US have learned that their religious freedom comes from the US Consitution. If they didn't accept following the constitution, then they'd be leaning toward killing each other off claiming their version of Christianity was the right one. Islam seems to lean way toward killing off the members of different sects than their own of Islam as they don't have the concept of religious freedom. They don't seem to have the concept of a sinner seeking forgiveness, like Christians. Islam wants perfection. That's my understanding of why the Kuran says to cut the hand or arm off of a little girl who steals a piece of candy. Once they remove the hand or arm, the little girl becomes perfect again.

I don't think they have the idea of forgiveness for sins, like Christians, do they? A radical Christian still believes in repentence and forgiveness of sins. I don't think any Islam person believes in that, do they?
 
Law's are made by men, they are enforced by men, even God's law while we're here. I live in the US and I follow the constitution.

Why don't you ever answer questions? Do you have an example of a conflict between the US Constitution and God's Law?
 
I just got this in an email, and it seems to fit in with this topic:

Written by a housewife from New Jersey and sounds like it! This is one
pissed off lady.

"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not
started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001?
Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, got brutally
murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from our
nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania? Did nearly three
thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or
crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when
an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?..Well, I don't.

I don't care at all.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for
incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start
caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi
Arabia.

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off
Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed
throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and
fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in
mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of
nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide
bombs.

I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First
Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead
of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an
Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have
been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest assured:
I don't care!

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not
to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank:

I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat,
and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining
that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your
heart of hearts: I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and
other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and - you guessed it - I don't
care ! ! ! ! !

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your e-mail
friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous
behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you
choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities
committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great country!
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Well, here it goes again, don't like to get in on these ones, but here it goes.

I am a Bible believing Christian. No one will ever convince me otherwise. Yes, I am evangelical, but have learned that I have to earn the right to tell someone they are wrong. I can't walk up to a stranger and tell them that the way they are living is going to send them to the pits of hell. However, if i take the time to get to know a person, care for them, and then make a real effort to get to know them, I might just get the chance to talk about what I believe and why. When that happens I know my God is big enough to change lives.

Now, here is where I may get into trouble. It is wrong that I as a Bible believing Christian will be forced to hear the call to prayer on the streets of New York City, for the record it happens, especially when my kids can be asked not bring their Bible to school. It is wrong for school rooms to study Islam, but then say it is un-Constitutional to say anything about Christianity in the same place of public education. It is wrong that the gay agenda has more right to say what it believes, and then call me a bigot if I disagree. It is wrong for anyone to believe religiously that they have the right to kill anyone for what they believe, Muslim or Christian.

Good American or not, the double standard needs to end. I as a Christian believe "Give to God what is God, and give to Caesar what is Caesar's." If I need to serve in the military to support my country, I will. If I die in service, well that is fine, because I was holding to what God has called me to do as a Christian.

What it all comes down to is everybody is afraid to say that there is an absolute. I believe in absolutes, everybody does, whether we want to admit it or not. Better figure out what your absolutes are, or pretty soon we will have people telling us what they are.
 
Sreekers, I presume that by a Christian, you mean that you follow the dictates and teachings of Jesus. If that is correct, let me ask you a question. Will your God, be it Jehovah or Jesus, think less of a man who is faithful to his religion and faithfully worships the Coconut God that he believes in, than he will of a baptized Christian who scorns his religion and lives a life of worldly indulgence?

:cool:
 
Sreekers, you sound like you said we can all have our own absolutes and they can be different. To me, an absolute is the same, no matter who you are. Do you think religious beliefs are absolutes?
 
Ok, I will state this, before we go any further talking about this. There are a ton of things that this could open up, and I am fully aware of that before I even step out there.

"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me."" John 14:6

This is pretty cut and dry to me. The "Coconut God" doesn't sound like he is the way. This is not me condemning him, but rather the Scripture. I know that was just an example, but that is what the Bible says. The next argument that I am sure will be brought up is the validity of the Bible. Next the validity of the Bible vs. Other religious writings, i.e. Quran.

One of the things that drives me up the wall is when someone who claims to be a Christian, isn't disgusted by their own sin. If a person is going to make a claim about something live it. I am going to step out on a limb here danr and say you have probably met someone like this, and as a result they have turned you off to Christianity. Well, the conclusion that I have come to, after spending quite a bit of time thinking about this subject is this. My God gives and takes away. Is God going to bless that lifestyle, I don't think so. (Blessings are not always monetary) That person is double minded, and therefore going to be fighting what he says he believes vs. what he lives by. Not a fun way to live.

If you are wanting me to condemn the person that to hell, well I am not big on playing God. That is his call not mine. Next on that list is the concept of grace, and the forgiveness of our sins. Jesus Christ died for us all, it is up to the person to accept that grace. Now how cheap we choose to make that grace is up to us. If we say we believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour then we better act like his grace means something(Great book on that, "The Cost of Discipleship," Dietrich Bonhoeffer). A Christian who so chooses to live like he or she did before salvation has cheapened grace, and told the world and God that it doesn't mean anything. Well, that is their choice and they need to work that out with God.

Look forward to talking more about this. I don't want to offend anyone, but I know that when it gets down to personal beliefs, especially about religion it happens, even unintentionally.
 
Tom, no I believe that an absolute is an absolute. If they all change for everybody, then the only inherent absoulute is that there aren't any. You are right in the way I stated it, I didn't do that justice. Maybe this will help.

Is it ever ok to kill a newborn child?
It it ever ok to rape any person?

Answer these questions. Think about what influences brought you to that conclusion. A lot of you are parents on here, that will influence your line of thought on these questions too. We all have a standard that will set up absolutes in our minds. So what is the final bottom line on what makes things right or wrong.

After much thought, prayer, and just flat out soul searching I believe that the things taught by the Bible and above all Jesus Christ are absolute. If you don't agree then how did you answe those questions. Chances are to some degree there is measure of Christian thought based on those answers. I will tell you what is right and wrong, but not by my standards, by my God's standards.

Again this opens up the validity of Scripture arguement. We can go there if any of you want to, but maybe we should start another thread for that.
 
First off i want to say i think it is really cool that a bunch of Elk hunters get on a blog and talk about God. You guys get a really cool opportunity to check out some of God's creation. Right before you blast it!

About this whole absolutes thing. I am with sreekers...I am a born again believer in Christ and I try to live my life accordingly. That doesnt mean I am perfect. If i was perfect i wouldn't need Christ. I could meet God all by myself. I am sure that would make me pretty prideful, and in turn i would end up sinful anyway. So either way you look at it, we all need Christ.

I love Christian History, you can look through it and see how many screw ups there have been and how many studs of the faith there have been. St. Augustine of Hippo is one of my favorites. This guy laid the foundation for the Reformation and what many Christians believe today. Augustine is quoted: "Love God and do as you please." Sounds simple huh? That raises some problems though, doesn't it? Does that mean i can love God and live like the devil? By no means! If i am a follower of Christ, and i truly love God, then God is not going to leave me like i am. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" - 1 Corinthians 5:17. If i am in Christ, i will still mess up. I will still fall. However, the consistent pattern of my life will show that God is refining me and making me new.

Look guys i know that we as Christians suck at what we are supposed to be doing. I dont have to tell you that, it is easy to see. Jesus called us to be perfect and we cant do it. It is an impossible lifestyle. We dont mean to be judgmental but we will not be tolerate. There are some absolutes that Christ talked about that we hold strong to.
 
"I will tell you what is right and wrong, but not by my standards, by my God's standards." I think its your interpretation of your God's standards. Someone else who reads the Bible may have another interpretaion of what's right and wrong. Baptists agree to agree on what is right and wrong, Methodists agree on a different set of interpretations, Catholics on another set, they're all Christians. In the US, we agree to let those different sets coexist, in Islamic countries they don't agree to that, as I understand it. The Suni's and Shiites don't agree to let each others interpretation of their God coexist, they kill each other.

If they had a constitution to follow that accepted religious freedom, then they could coexist. I guess if you went over their and made them Christians, they might adopt such a constitution to actually follow. I think they'd probably kill you first though, the Islamists all seem to agree on that, killing infedels, according to their God and their Curan. Isn't that what they believe, its straight from God, not their interpretation?
 
Ok, I may set myself up for even more here, but oh well I am allready too far gone not to.

Interpretation of Scripture is tough. It is very easy to take one verse and use it for anything that you want. Its like how often I see on here, one person take one sentence of what somebody says, and mangles it to get their point across. The same gets done with the Bible, you can't accept one part and not the whole thing. It either stands as a whole or falls as whole.

Next thing that I want to state is this, no denomination is perfect. Every one of them has a flaw or two. I am a Southern Baptist by choice simply because of their stance on the Bible. There are some things that I disagree with in my denomination, but I feel they are the closest to what the Bible teaches. I won't pick on other denominations because i don't want to open that can of worms.

As far as Islam goes its a funny thing. One section of it tells them to be peaceable with the "people of the book." Another passage tells them to destroy them. It just doesn't stand as a whole. I am taking that in context as well, especially since I just talked about context before. The thing about trying to separate church and state in a country that is predominately Muslim is that it is impossible. Shariah law is part of what every Muslim believes the way a country should be operated, its commanded. Now try and set up a Constitution that separates church and state? That is why we have so many problems in Iraq, there is no separation in their minds. Their constitution is the Quran, plain and simple.

Another thing not to get confused on is the names of the different branches of Islam. An Islamist is not at Extremist. They are two separate parties. Look up exactly what they all are, its pretty interesting. The funny thing to me is that Islam is supposed to emphasize unity, but in reality there are a lot dividing factors.
 
sreekers said:
As far as Islam goes its a funny thing. One section of it tells them to be peaceable with the "people of the book." Another passage tells them to destroy them. It just doesn't stand as a whole.
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So, would you agree then.....to sum it up, the answer to this topic is NO. A good muslim cannot be a good American?
 
Well, my problem with agreeing completely is the word "good American." For the most part muslims are going struggle with the separation of church and state. This is going to depend on whether they are muslim by lipservice, or are genuine believers in that faith. If genuine belief is the case they are going to have a problem with American society as a whole, let alone assimilating into it. That however is a struggle they must work out before attempting to become a citizen, or any part of this culture. If they are lipservice muslims, they may assimilate fairly well and could be considered productive members of our American society.

My only question is this, what is a "good American?" Define that for me, if it allready has been, then I will go back and look at that and answer from there.
 
Sreekers, I wasn't trying to set up anything. I just getting feel for where you are at in comparison to most "born again" Christians. I neither argue for nor against your faith. I just try to understand it.

As for the definition of a Good American, I think I've explained my position on that one. It has to do with believing in and supporting and defending the Constitution against enemies both foreign and domestic. Setting the Constitution above politics or religion in the framework that it is contrued in. The Constitution has no more business running a religion than a religion has running a country. They serve two different purposes. The Constitution of the United States suffers many religions to exist freely and without predjudice. The inverse is not necessarily true.

:cool:
 
These two laws have been melded to a point to create the United States of America...

The magic came when they wrote into the constitution to be accepting of other religions

Dan hit it on the head when he stated it's the ideals that are important

I don't believe it's as important which group you belong to when following your path, but that the trail ends at the same point

Thats what it all boils down to in the true sense of most all religion, established or not, plain and simple

With that said, not all religions can or should fit into the American way of life no differently than in any other part of the world

D-Att

Let me be the first to welcome you aboard, and glad you piped in

You have it wrong though on most of our feelings when it comes to harvesting game

Some just "blast" there game, but your missing the whole point of the adventure if you think that's all it is...
 
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