Bears Ears and Gold Butte become National Monuments

[Straight Arrow]

... it seems crazy that the president- any president- can unilaterally designate land like this ...

Once again, emotional disagreement with an action by the Executive, Legislative, or Judicial branch of the democratically representative government, primarily given authority by us, people who vote, seems to have completely erased what one has learned in sixth-grade civics class about what is the "government" and how it is authorized, funded, and operates. The specific disagreement results in characterizing the Congressionally approved Executive authority as "crazy".

 

[double_a85]

A little under 10 years ago I spent a summer in Southern Utah/ Northern Arizona working for a professor at Montana State University. Much of that time was also spent in the Bear Ears Monument. Its a wonderful place. In a way, it reminded me a lot of the Missouri Breaks of Montana. Take a hike and get away from the roads and you sometimes get the sense no one has ever been here. While I am on both sides of the fence in terms of Monument designation anywhere, I have never complained about hiking into a remote, beautiful area and wished I could drive there, or, that I wish the silence was drowned out by jeeps and ATVs.

 

[OriginalOscar]

Dukes_daddy, I get what you're saying but the county with the highest unemployment on your map is also the county with the most dependency on the very natural resources you speak of. Moab would be a ghost town right now after the uranium bust if it weren't for their migration to tourism. Chasing boom- and- bust economies is not the way to long term sustainability... especially when there's a very good chance our energy policies will be dramatically different 30 years from now than they are today.

Nobody believes this area has huge reserves of oil/gas. In rural counties every year round job is precious and eliminating ANY opportunity in a county that is only 8% privately owned is blatant disregard for the people who live there.

Utah gets a bad wrap because of the land transfer position our state leadership has taken and it's something most Utahn's don't support. What I am proud of our state leadership for is they have not disavowed our rural areas like some of our neighboring states have. I had some folks in the energy business in Utah earlier this year looking where to plan a future conference; they would not even consider Denver because of the disdain they felt.

Agreed 30 years in the future our world will be different and who knows what our economy will look like. What we do know is commodities will be needed and those will always be grown or dug. Also 30 years pays off a mortgage, raises a family, and leaves future generations better which is every parents goal. Slamming the door on rural folks future opportunities is another example of progressive arrogance and disdain from the left.

 

[MTGomer]

Once again, emotional disagreement with an action by the Executive, Legislative, or Judicial branch of the democratically representative government, primarily given authority by us, people who vote, seems to have completely erased what one has learned in sixth-grade civics class about what is the "government" and how it is authorized, funded, and operates. The specific disagreement results in characterizing the Congressionally approved Executive authority as "crazy".

For there to be an ounce of validity to your statement, I would have to have a disagreement to the designation, which I don't.

Not all of us have been awake for 4 hours and are wide-eyed. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply misunderstood what I wrote, and need a bit more coffee.

My statement was simply that it is surprising to me that in 1906? the legislative branch was so comfortable with the executive branch that they delegated it this kind of authority.

The second half, which you must not have read before hastily hitting 'reply', said that I'm surprised that with the upcoming utah-led land grab attempts that more land wasn't designated. I realize more land can't be designated, due to limitations in the Antiquities act, therefore that second half was sarcasm, which should have its own font apparently.

Comprende, chief?

 

[BuzzH]

Nobody believes this area has huge reserves of oil/gas. In rural counties every year round job is precious and eliminating ANY opportunity in a county that is only 8% privately owned is blatant disregard for the people who live there.

If that's true and you really believe that, then what about all the year round Federal jobs that would be lost if Utah were to gain state control of federal lands?

Is your State leadership worried about those jobs?

 

[Ben Lamb]

FWIW, the So. Utah folks have had real issues with the "Feds" for the last 70 years. Its not the polygamy issue, though they all have relatives that do it, most more ethical than Warren Jeffs. What I'm talking about is called the "Down Winders". Back in the late 40's when the first atomic tests were done in Nevada, clouds of fallout (radioactive) drifted over southern Utah and No. Arizona. The "Feds" told the folks that it was harmless stuff and not to worry. After years of tests, the above ground explosions ended in the 60's and life went on, until lots of family members started to come down with leukemias and lymphomas, mostly fatal. Both young kids and adults of all ages died. The "Feds", of course denied any responsibility. There was finally a bill sponsored by Sen. Hatch that did pay damages after the fact, 30+ years later, after decades of denials. I bring this up not to condone the "sagebrush rebellion" or any of the nonsence that has come out of Utah since, but to give a bit of background on their distrust of the"Feds" and their guarantees. GJ

I've never heard of this being used in the context of opposing federal actions. It's not just the down-winders that were affected. My father died from renal cell carcinoma that was due to radiation exposure at the Gas Hills Uranium mill in Wyoming. He worked there in the 1950's. Most of the people who worked in the mills & mines or were affected by the down-wind effects are dead or close too it from some extremely nasty cancers. I'd be curious to see any documentation you have that ties distrust of the fed to this. My experience has been that the distrust is regional and primarily focused on rural areas. it is especially strong in rural areas where they want economic development of a specific kind but are reluctant to embrace other economic opportunities.

Hatch did a mitzvah on that reparations bill. It paid for dad's extremely expensive treatment as well as his in-home hospice care. There are over 20,000 Wyoming miners & mill workers who have either contracted cancer or died from it. Not sure about the numbers on down-winders. Another bad legacy from a time when regulations were shunned in favor of expedited development and extraction.

 

[Straight Arrow]

surprising to me

No, the term was "crazy".

second half was sarcasm

'Got it and appreciated your clarity and sarcasm when I first read it. But I did not really address that part.

Comprende, chief?

Derogatory sarcasm or what? 'Don't know if you think I'm a native american leader, supervisory Navy personnel, or what. I'm a retired US Army officer and if you wish to name / title-call, you may refer to me as Colonel (ret) US Army. (I did not really wish to get into a back-and-forth personal debate, but chief, really?!)

 

[TheTone]

If that's true and you really believe that, then what about all the year round Federal jobs that would be lost if Utah were to gain state control of federal lands?

Is your State leadership worried about those jobs?

Those jobs don't count, its only about jobs for the guy with a 10th grade education driving a truck, cutting the tree, or cutting in a new road...

Honestly the fed job thing and the "locals" with those jobs is something I have never seen addressed by anyone that is pushing PLT.

 

[MTGomer]

No, the term was "crazy".

'Got it and appreciated your clarity and sarcasm when I first read it. But I did not really address that part.

Derogatory sarcasm or what? 'Don't know if you think I'm a native american leader, supervisory Navy personnel, or what. I'm a retired US Army officer and if you wish to name / title-call, you may refer to me as Colonel (ret) US Army. (I did not really wish to get into a back-and-forth personal debate, but chief, really?!)

You seem to be trying a little too hard to find conflict where none was intended, and to receive offense where none was given. Weird way to be, but to each their own.

 

[BuzzH]

Honestly the fed job thing and the "locals" with those jobs is something I have never seen addressed by anyone that is pushing PLT.

Nope, I haven't either...the dead elephant in the room they seem obligated to ignore.

Shouldn't come as a shock though, anything "fed", including their own constituents who work for the "fed", are all that is wrong in the State of Utah...

Not surprisingly either, that its crickets from Dukes_daddy about the local federal jobs that would be lost in rural Utah with PLT. Nobody likes talking about reality and tough questions never seem to be answered.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Nope, I haven't either...the dead elephant in the room they seem obligated to ignore.

Shouldn't come as a shock though, anything "fed", including their own constituents who work for the "fed", are all that is wrong in the State of Utah...

Not surprisingly either, that its crickets from Dukes_daddy about the federal jobs that would be lost in rural Utah with PLT. Nobody likes talking about reality.

The way I heard it explained by Fielder & the ALC is that those positions would be moved to the state and that through aggressive development, those positions would be paid for.

 

[BuzzH]

The way I heard it explained by Fielder & the ALC is that those positions would be moved to the state and that through aggressive development, those positions would be paid for.

That's hilarious!

I would have asked Fielder and the ALC if they were willing to put that in writing...that every current Federal worker would receive the exact same pay and benefit package in the places they currently live.

Not a chance that would happen...Fielder is full of crap.

 

[grandejuan]

I've never heard of this being used in the context of opposing federal actions. It's not just the down-winders that were affected. My father died from renal cell carcinoma that was due to radiation exposure at the Gas Hills Uranium mill in Wyoming. He worked there in the 1950's. Most of the people who worked in the mills & mines or were affected by the down-wind effects are dead or close too it from some extremely nasty cancers. I'd be curious to see any documentation you have that ties distrust of the fed to this. My experience has been that the distrust is regional and primarily focused on rural areas. it is especially strong in rural areas where they want economic development of a specific kind but are reluctant to embrace other economic opportunities.

Hatch did a mitzvah on that reparations bill. It paid for dad's extremely expensive treatment as well as his in-home hospice care. There are over 20,000 Wyoming miners & mill workers who have either contracted cancer or died from it. Not sure about the numbers on down-winders. Another bad legacy from a time when regulations were shunned in favor of expedited development and extraction.

I lived in Flagstaff for 40years and had many patients who were victims or had family members (such as yourself) that were. What I was trying to express was an anecdotal feeling that I often heard expressed by the locals many times, especially those who had suffered from the "Down Wind" effects. They were told that the dirt falling out of the sky after the tests was "harmless". These folks would tell me " Why should I believe anything these federal boys tell us. Look what's happened to my family". The miners and processors were probably exposed for even longer periods of time. There are several old mill and mine sites on the Navaho reservation that are still not covered, depending on who you talk to. Hatch's bill was a real mitzvah. It just came to late for most if not all of the victims. Obviously, we aren't looking at any uranium mining, although there are active mines north of the grand canyon and at least one that was started about 20 miles south of the canyon and lots of claims all over the area. The Navaho reservation has active oil wells at Aneth, not that far from the bears ears so lots could happen. FWIW. GJ

 

[Ben Lamb]

I lived in Flagstaff for 40years and had many patients who were victims or had family members (such as yourself). What I was trying to express was an anecdotal feeling that I often heard expressed by the locals, especially those who had suffered from the "Down Wind" effects. They were told that the dirt falling out of the sky after the tests was "harmless". These folks would tell me " Why should I believe anything these federal boys tell us. Look what's happened to my family". The miners and processors were probably exposed for even longer periods of time. There were several old mill and mine sites on the Navaho reservation that are still not covered, depending on who you talk to.

Thank you for helping those victim and their families. We loved our hospice care folks and the docs & nurses who helped dad fight that evil. That has to be one of the toughest jobs to do in the entire world.

I can see that sentiment & certainly understand the reasoning. Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[Elkmagnet]

"My experience has been that the distrust is regional and primarily focused on rural areas."
"Most of the people who worked in the mills & mines or were affected by the down-wind effects are dead or close too it from some extremely nasty cancers."

Hatred is very often taught if Grandpa hated the fed govment and Dad hates the Fed's then little Ryan and Ammon are going to hate them also.

I can see how this could easily be a contributing factor.

The same as being taught to sheep ranchers in coffee shop seminars.

7:00am - How controlled burns can benefit your spring grazing. With guest speaker Mr Steven Hammond joining via conference call.

8:00am - We will have an open discussion on how to end the abuse of the food stamp system by urbanites.

8:30am - Randy Spooner will be advising us on the availability of federal disaster relief funds due to drought.

9:00am - We will discuss the current legislation brought forward by the Cattlemen's Association and how it will benefit ranching families in the West.

10:00 - County Commissioner Joe Johnstone is going to stop in while filling his truck with diesel and discuss his impromptu week long study of Wild Horse populations.

10:30am - Jack is going to fill us in on what he learned from the USDA about current Predator control options.

11:00am - We will have a open discussion on who the federal government is and what have they done for you lately.

11:30am - Getting the most for your tag. Joel will advise us on current prices in the landowner tag Market

12:00 - Lunch!

We'd like to thanks Shelly at Gus's gas and Brew in Bunkerville for having us.

 

[OriginalOscar]

Those jobs don't count, its only about jobs for the guy with a 10th grade education driving a truck, cutting the tree, or cutting in a new road...

Honestly the fed job thing and the "locals" with those jobs is something I have never seen addressed by anyone that is pushing PLT.

So some people don't count? That arrogant attitude is exactly why we changed direction last election.

How did we get to PLT discussion again? I guess we all should take the same attitude to those whiny ID hicks when they start complaining about federal management of wolves. Suck it up and accept playing nature park for we tourists.

 

[BuzzH]

The Idaho hicks have no complaints, wolves are under state control there.

In case you forgot...what about those year round federal jobs in rural Utah that your Utah Legislators are trying to do away with?

Don't want to talk to them about it, or just giving them yet another free pass?

Or do those people holding federal jobs just not count?

 

[JoseCuervo]

The Idaho hicks have no complaints, wolves are under state control there.

In case you forgot...what about those year round federal jobs in rural Utah that your Utah Legislators are trying to do away with?

Don't want to talk to them about it, or just giving them yet another free pass?

The Idaho hicks have complaints, that is just a way of life.

 

[OriginalOscar]

The Idaho hicks have no complaints, wolves are under state control there.

In case you forgot...what about those year round federal jobs in rural Utah that your Utah Legislators are trying to do away with?

Don't want to talk to them about it, or just giving them yet another free pass?

Or do those people holding federal jobs just not count?

So because our state leadership has taken a position pro PLT; people in rural Utah should be penalized? Agreed the federal jobs and funding are important to those local economies and the state leadership is wrong on PLT.

The Antiquities Act was intended to preserved the smallest possible area. To draw a line around 1.3M acres in rural Utah is extreme overreach.

Devils Tower was important to the native americans. How about 500,000 acre monument. Black Hills were also sacred. That one should be about 2.5M acres.

Why can't WY get state control of your wolves? Oh yeah something about telling the feds they were to be listed as vermin. That's a reasonable position that seems to be working well for you all.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Dukes - what about the residents of UT who wanted a larger footprint for Bears Ears? Does their opinion matter? What about the tribes who wanted a larger role in management but only got co-management?

Two sides to every story, and saying the residents in surrounding communities didn't want it is glossing over those who did. I've seen several native owned businesses say they are glad this happened.

Whateconomic opportunity is lost to residents under the Monument designation? As you say, the likelihood of O&G development is very low. What other economic opportunities were on the horizon for the region beyond increasing tourism and livestock grazing - both of which are now protected by the order?