Are we haggling over the wrong things?

[OntarioHunter]

Not me. Every day I do what I can to make this change. I suspect everyone has their own "just one thing," this is mine. This planet, this west, this landscape, this habitat, these species. I write, I talk, I pick up litter, I advocate, I participate. I think about how to live my value in this life every single day. And I do so. I'm not the only one on HT doing so, not even in the top 10. But I never quit and never stop.

Count me in. I have enough money now to return and buy a sizable ranch in Montana for my own private piece of paradise. But I won't join that parade. I keep my very small home here in town and return to Montana to visit only. After six weeks hunting every day and living in my trailer I pull out and leave Montana as it was. Well, as it was when I arrived anyway. Montana will never be what it was when I grew up there.

 

[SAJ-99]

Yeah I agree. I don’t know how he got that from a corn yield chart. My take from that chart was that you don’t like mortgage back reit’s as an investment idea and that you like to argue about the minute details of mule deer harvest and population count data.

 

[CycleFishHunt]

I wonder how the pro population control people would feel if their parents were as persuaded by the argument as they are

Some would be totally okay with it. They are called anti-natalists.

Yes, this is a thing.

Antinatalism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[COEngineer]

I had a conservation with an analyst in the renewable industry a couple weeks ago who said "I don't think surface impacts are at all an issue".

I pushed them on the point and they straight out said that habitat isn't important compared with climate change and that solar panels per their company are only economic if done in big projects, on cheap or public land with subsidies.

There are idiots in every industry. I hope that is not a sentiment held by most in their industry. However, that does line up with what the OP's article was referencing - a myopia on climate change. To me, if we mitigate climate change and there's no habitat left, then what's the point? If we don't care about habitat, we can just move inland and further north as the tundra thaws.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Post in thread 'A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides'
https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/a-...-will-piss-off-both-sides.313408/post-3399371

View attachment 254373

Thanks for the reminder.

A lot of moving parts here.

First of all, the US (minus immigration) is already population growth negative, no need for policies to promote that - $250,000 for college and other exorbitant expectations kills the fertility rate without govt. intervention.

Second, the societal collapse predicted by even modest de-population will do far more environment harm than orderly and naturally shrinking population growth rates.

Third, humans are part of the world. A part that seems destined to both change it, but lament change. But hey, in a thousand years, any remaining human desecendants may be praising the final end of the last ice age, as flora and fauna return to Greenland.

Environmental DNA uncovers a 2-million-year-old ecosystem in Greenland

Around 2 million years ago, climate in Greenland resembled the forecast of a future under global warming: with trees such as poplars and birch and animals like hare, lemmings, mastodons and reindeer.

www.llnl.gov

 

[BrentD]

Thanks for the reminder.

A lot of moving parts here.

First of all, the US (minus immigration) is already population growth negative, no need for policies to promote that - $250,000 for college and other exorbitant expectations kills the fertility rate without govt. intervention.

Second, the societal collapse predicted by even modest de-population will do far more environment harm than orderly and naturally shrinking population growth rates.

Third, humans are part of the world. A part that seems destined to both change it, but lament change. But hey, in a thousand years, any remaining human desecendants may be praising the final end of the last ice age, as flora and fauna return to Greenland.

Environmental DNA uncovers a 2-million-year-old ecosystem in Greenland

Around 2 million years ago, climate in Greenland resembled the forecast of a future under global warming: with trees such as poplars and birch and animals like hare, lemmings, mastodons and reindeer.

www.llnl.gov

I think I'll have to disagree, or at least not agree to agree without data, on points 1 & 2. As for point 3, I'll take even money against it, but I'm just guessing.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think I'll have to disagree, or at least not agree to agree without data, on points 1 & 2. As for point 3, I'll take even money against it, but I'm just guessing.

US fertility rate is below level needed to replace population, study says | CNN

The total fertility rate for the United States in 2017 continued to dip below what's needed for the population to replace itself, a new report said. That year, South Dakota had the highest and the District of Columbia had the lowest fertility rates.

www.cnn.com

No data for the future, so will have to get back to you on the other two

 

[BrentD]

US fertility rate is below level needed to replace population, study says | CNN

The total fertility rate for the United States in 2017 continued to dip below what's needed for the population to replace itself, a new report said. That year, South Dakota had the highest and the District of Columbia had the lowest fertility rates.

www.cnn.com

No data for the future, so will have to get back to you on the other two

No, I agree about the fertility rate as it stands, but $250k tuition, not so much, and if it is, that might actually boost fertility. Afterall, countries with the least accessible higher ed have the highest fertility rates.

 

[VikingsGuy]

No, I agree about the fertility rate as it stands, but $250k tuition, not so much, and if it is, that might actually boost fertility. Afterall, countries with the least accessible higher ed have the highest fertility rates.

Certainly educational and professional achievement by women - which is unequivocally a good thing - is a part of falling birth rates, but so is the "cost per child" perceptions. It is one of the reasons China has started prohibiting private elementary schools and private tutors. Even after opening up the one-child policy, there were early indicators that "cost per child" expectations were going to lock in a quasi-one child policy as a social norm.

 

[BrentD]

Certainly educational and professional achievement by women - which is unequivocally a good thing - is a part of falling birth rates, but so is the "cost per child" perceptions. It is one of the reasons China has started prohibiting private elementary schools and private tutors. Even after opening up the one-child policy, there were early indicators that "cost per child" expectations were going to lock in a quasi-one child policy as a social norm.

with ever broadening distributions of wealth, the cost of education will be too great for even one child. And I think there is a negative correlation between wealth and fertility (really should be careful about saying fertility - birth rate is the benchmark. Lots of fertile folks don't breed, of course).

 

[peterk1234]

I have not read all the posts, so I apologize if this has already come up. Nature is incredible. It culls the weak. It may be by predators. It could be the mating cycle. It could be weather. It could be other natural corrections.

We do not cull the weak. Modern medicine has made sure of that. And now the weak can procreate. I know this discussion is a slippery slope. Heck, my appendix would have taken me out two years ago. But maybe there was a reason for it.

 

[Shangobango]

What if it all boils down to one problem, and that problem is us? Interesting article.

Thanks for sharing this article. I needed the reinforcement that I am not off of my rocker.

I have been saying this for quite sometime to the complete dismay of most of my family and friends.

As as a matter of fact this came up over the Thanksgiving holidays when some family members tried to engage me in their discussion of politics…which I avoid whenever possible. My simple response was “ all of these things would be non-issues if the human population simply crashed, and it is just a matter of time.”

You would have thought I drew a pentagram on the wall and sacrificed a goat…

 

[MarvB]

Kind of a long read but it does add a bit of an interesting twist to the discussion…thoughts?

America’s Growing Religious-Secular Fertility Divide

Birth rates in the United States are near record lows, but not for everyone. Indeed, under the surface of the fertility decline since 2007 is a little noticed fact: fertility has declined much more among nonreligious Americans than among the devout. Data from the National Survey of Family Growth...

ifstudies.org

 

[Irrelevant]

Kind of a long read but it does add a bit of an interesting twist to the discussion…thoughts?

America’s Growing Religious-Secular Fertility Divide

Birth rates in the United States are near record lows, but not for everyone. Indeed, under the surface of the fertility decline since 2007 is a little noticed fact: fertility has declined much more among nonreligious Americans than among the devout. Data from the National Survey of Family Growth...

ifstudies.org

I have thoughts on that, but I'll show some restraint and keep them to myself

 

[OntarioHunter]

Thanks for sharing this article. I needed the reinforcement that I am not off of my rocker.

I have been saying this for quite sometime to the complete dismay of most of my family and friends.

As as a matter of fact this came up over the Thanksgiving holidays when some family members tried to engage me in their discussion of politics…which I avoid whenever possible. My simple response was “ all of these things would be non-issues if the human population simply crashed, and it is just a matter of time.”

You would have thought I drew a pentagram on the wall and sacrificed a goat…

For once we are on the same page.

 

[Rhcuam]

This one was wild. Some very chi-com ideas.
Instead of limiting how many children people can have or taxing family’s for having children.
How about euthanasia for people over a certain age, maybe 80. Taxing people over 70 heavily. I mean at that age they don’t contribute very much if anything to society. More of a liability really.
We could also stop aid (medical, food, and financial) to poorer nations. That should definitely help in the herd.
It’s not genocide if you say its to prevent climate change.

Edit: after running the numbers if we could liquidate the 3 oldest generations
( the greatest, the silent, and the boomers) we could drop the U.S. population 27.18%. Big drop in resource drain and it would free up a lot of wealth. That way younger, healthier, more productive members of society can have more than 2 kids, as purposed by some here.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Thanks for sharing this article. I needed the reinforcement that I am not off of my rocker.

I have been saying this for quite sometime to the complete dismay of most of my family and friends.

As as a matter of fact this came up over the Thanksgiving holidays when some family members tried to engage me in their discussion of politics…which I avoid whenever possible. My simple response was “ all of these things would be non-issues if the human population simply crashed, and it is just a matter of time.”

You would have thought I drew a pentagram on the wall and sacrificed a goat…

I think a lot of people on this discussion have taken the thoughts to a way more extreme place than my original point, not that any of it is irrelevant. Maybe I’m simple, but my main thought was more wildlife management oriented. We wring our hands over declining mule deer, too much wildlife/human “conflict” (e.g. elk in MT), declining habitat quality on public land, habitat fragmentation, increased disturbance, and we get very upset that the state agencies aren’t “fixing” it.

But from the other side, all of those pressures are not only not going away, but they are accelerating and expanding at an exponential rate. I don’t think it’s realistic to think state agencies are going to somehow just fix any of those problems. As long as we demand unlimited energy consumption, second homes, our own 20 acre chunk of habitat, unlimited access to recreational opportunities, etc etc, agencies don’t really have the authority to address the underlying issues. Yeah, you can improve habitat quality. But if habitat keeps getting gobbled up by solar farms, wind farms, subdivisions, etc populations will still decline.

My mental query is more along the lines of “what are we willing to give up to allow for more mule deer, more elk, more high quality habitat, etc?” Based on our behaviors as a society, and responses on this thread, I take the answer to be “Nothing”.

 

[Rhcuam]

I think a lot of people on this discussion have taken the thoughts to a way more extreme place than my original point, not that any of it is irrelevant. Maybe I’m simple, but my main thought was more wildlife management oriented. We wring our hands over declining mule deer, too much wildlife/human “conflict” (e.g. elk in MT), declining habitat quality on public land, habitat fragmentation, increased disturbance, and we get very upset that the state agencies aren’t “fixing” it.

But from the other side, all of those pressures are not only not going away, but they are accelerating and expanding at an exponential rate. I don’t think it’s realistic to think state agencies are going to somehow just fix any of those problems. As long as we demand unlimited energy consumption, second homes, our own 20 acre chunk of habitat, unlimited access to recreational opportunities, etc etc, agencies don’t really have the authority to address the underlying issues. Yeah, you can improve habitat quality. But if habitat keeps getting gobbled up by solar farms, wind farms, subdivisions, etc populations will still decline.

My mental query is more along the lines of “what are we willing to give up to allow for more mule deer, more elk, more high quality habitat, etc?” Based on our behaviors as a society, and responses on this thread, I take the answer to be “Nothing”.

Your right. State agencies nor anyone else can make more of anything worth while.
The pie is shrinking.
If RMEF opens access to 1000 acres but we lose 5000 acres to subdivisions and resource acquisitions what is the point?
Which is also why I cringe every time I hear we need more hunters. More hunters competing over less huntable acres is a losing strategy.

 

[Shangobango]

My mental query is more along the lines of “what are we willing to give up to allow for more mule deer, more elk, more high quality habitat, etc?” Based on our behaviors as a society, and responses on this thread, I take the answer to be “Nothing”.

I think your final sentence sums up our current reality.

I still have hope for the future. I don’t think it is out of the question that some sort of new awakening happens where we as a species take a long hard look in the mirror and realize that what we are doing is not sustainable, not only for ourselves but for the planet as a whole, and change our trajectory accordingly.

I also think that if that doesn’t happen the matter will likely be taken out of our hands. I think that there is a real possibility that advanced species such as ourselves are self limiting and eventually equilibrium will be returned to the system.

 

[longbow51]

It could be done.

Just live like it's the 50s. One car/family, 1000 square foot house (if), one works for income, one raises the kids (doesn't have to be the female this time), buy clothes that last, made in USA, and made from renewables like cotton and wool, not oil.

One income = fewer kids, less extraneous junk, no new phone (rare earths, etc.) every other year. No phones for kids. They have to read books.

Remove rewards for having extra children.

And eat real food prepared from scratch, not wrapped in plastic. Good old butcher paper again.

Strict immigration policies; as Abbey suggested, if things are so bad where they came from, send them back with a carbine and a case of ammo each and let them fix it.

Not happening though.