Are we haggling over the wrong things?

[BrentD]

I agree we will not last for ever. But all those who have bet against us for the last 2,000+ years have been wrong, so why now 2022? All the reasons that could be cited today could have been been the answer multiple times in the past.

Some day we will be gone, but I will neither predict when or root for it as some "good".

I don't know who was betting against us 2000+yrs ago. But their wagers are irrelevant today. .

We will be gone. That is a certainty. When is the question. I suspect much sooner than later and things will be much worse sooner than that. That is all.

 

[antlerradar]

I get your point.

I can only speak for myself when I say that what I am talking about is not “the end of the world”. Species decline all the time. Sometimes they rebound sometimes they don’t. Even for modern humans there is evidence that there may have been a severe bottleneck in the population at sometime in the past. I see no reason to think it can’t or won’t happen again. Nothing lasts forever. To think otherwise in my opinion is hubristic. And also in my opinion, hubris is why the planet is in the shape that it is in.

The number of species I have seen rebound far exceeds the ones that have declined, but maybe that is because live in a place that has been insulated from the people population boom.

 

[BrentD]

The number of species I have seen rebound far exceeds the ones that have declined, but maybe that is because live in a place that has been insulated from the people population boom.

The key here is "that you have seen".

None of us have a broad enough experience to make that statement and generalize to the world.

 

[rogerthat]

This just continues the ongoing replay of 1968-1977. The original sucked - and the reruns are not better. Absent nuclear war, people will not destroy the planet or themselves, but it is a very trendy talker every 50 yrs or so. Was also popular in 1917-1920.

We are destroying the planet. Signs are all around us. You don’t have to look far. Maybe you don’t see a human infestation as destruction…agree to disagree. I assume you like wild animals and wild places? They can’t last forever when faced with a human population that is growing exponentially…unless we start colonizing mars like Elon’s plan

 

[DouglasR]

unless we start colonizing mars like Elon’s plan

This is THE plan.
As a species, we are explorers.
Unfortunately, WE just happen to be a generation living through a developmental stage.
The ships to the new world will be built.

 

[D_Walt]

We are destroying the planet. Signs are all around us. You don’t have to look far. Maybe you don’t see a human infestation as destruction…agree to disagree. I assume you like wild animals and wild places? They can’t last forever when faced with a human population that is growing exponentially…unless we start colonizing mars like Elon’s plan

Sooooo….if we destroy everything and the human species and most others are gone from the earth, so what? Didn’t all life supposedly start from some primordial ooze? Wouldn’t evolution not just start over? I’m sure there will still be living ooze or cockroaches left to slowly evolve into CWD resistant deer and politicians, just need a couple billion years. The sun has like another 7 billion years in it or something before it cooks the earth. There might be a day of reckoning before all that anyways. Make babies, drive a truck with a V8 and go hunting… don’t know how much good it does to get worked up about things that can’t be changed.

 

[Shangobango]

Some day we will be gone, but I will neither predict when or root for it as some "good".

Yes, I agree. It won’t be “good”. It also won’t be the end of the world.

 

[Whiptail]

Even if we burn every single fossil fuel before we die out the earth will cleanse itself within a million years which is a very short period of time geologically. That said, I'd prefer it if we behaved in a less like locusts and have more positive long term behaviors. The first step is to stop incentivizing bad behavior.

 

[Irrelevant]

I live in a house that was probably the American dream in 1960. And, I’m fine with it.

Now, it would seem the American dream is 3800 sf on a five acre lot, with a big shop to park the toys in. Not only do we increase our physical footprint, but our lifestyle footprint as well.

Some good friends of our bought 12 acres in an area that is rapidly developing. That’s what they’ll build. And so will the neighbors, and their neighbors. I want to be happy for them, but I despise the conversion of open spaces to acreage suburbia.

I'm such a hypocrite in this regard. I despise development. But when it became clear our 900 sq ft home just wasn't bit enough I tried to find another older home to buy, in a place I wanted to live. Unfortunately after 7 years the Mrs and I couldn't agree on anything. She really struggled with buying a home in need of updates, arguing why should we buy two kitchens/bathrooms/floorings/etc, I struggled with a cookie cutter in a new development... so I sold my soul and bought vacant land and built a house.

I often feel like shit for it. The deer have adapted, but the elk clearly don't like our house (even if they do like our landscaping), the grouse are gone, and there's fewer quail. The songbirds and pollinators have benefitted but that's about it.

I'm definitely part of the problem

 

[JLS]

I'm definitely part of the problem

We all are.

 

[DouglasR]

I realize I grew up in a much lower socioeconomic class than most of the members on here, but man, new construction has never crossed my mind.
As I get older, it’s interesting to see the way multi generational wealth stacks the odds against the less fortunate and keeps the poor man down.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I don't know who was betting against us 2000+yrs ago. But their wagers are irrelevant today. .

We will be gone. That is a certainty. When is the question. I suspect much sooner than later and things will be much worse sooner than that. That is all.

I am a member of one “doomsday cult” that started 2000 years ago.

As for sooner and worse - so was the expectation on the heals of ww1 and again in the late 60s/early 90s. It will happen when it happens, but probably not soon and probably not for the reasons lamented on this thread.

 

[VikingsGuy]

We are destroying the planet. Signs are all around us. You don’t have to look far. Maybe you don’t see a human infestation as destruction…agree to disagree. I assume you like wild animals and wild places? They can’t last forever when faced with a human population that is growing exponentially…unless we start colonizing mars like Elon’s plan

Population growth is not filling the spaces - the desire for some to not live in large cities is. We will never come close to peak population an a density basis, energy basis or food basis - particularly since we are pretty close demographically to peak population. But we will have to change our ways.

 

[Shangobango]

I realize I grew up in a much lower socioeconomic class than most of the members on here, but man, new construction has never crossed my mind.
As I get older, it’s interesting to see the way multi generational wealth stacks the odds against the less fortunate and keeps the poor man down.

Wealth is being consolidated more and more no doubt. I can’t remember which economist or writer it was who said something to the effect of, “ the logical conclusion of unchecked capitalism is one giant corporation that owns everything”.

I am not an economist, and I consider myself a capitalist, but that kind of makes sense.

Also, I was born poor. Like really poor. I always hear how bad this generation has it. I say horse s$&t. No one has ever had it better.

 

[BrentD]

I am a member of one “doomsday cult” that started 2000 years ago.

As for sooner and worse - so was the expectation on the heals of ww1 and again in the late 60s/early 90s. It will happen when it happens, but probably not soon and probably not for the reasons lamented on this thread.

One of those crazy Templars, eh?

I think we are FAR past our peak sustainable population and maybe near our final peak population. The peak right before the fall.

Keep in mind from your basic ecology classwork, populations crash much harder and faster than they grow up. "soft landings" are not likely.

 

[DouglasR]

Wealth is being consolidated more and more no doubt. I can’t remember which economist or writer it was who said something to the effect of, “ the logical conclusion of unchecked capitalism is one giant corporation that owns everything”.

I am not an economist, and I consider myself a capitalist, but that kind of makes sense.

Also, I was born poor. Like really poor. I always hear how bad this generation has it. I say horse s$&t. No one has ever had it better.

I feel like I’m probably the poorest member of the forum.

 

[OntarioHunter]

One of those crazy Templars, eh?

I think we are FAR past our peak sustainable population and maybe near our final peak population. The peak right before the fall.

Keep in mind from your basic ecology classwork, populations crash much harder and faster than they grow up. "soft landings" are not likely.

Agreed. History teaches us that populations who are suddenly hungry or forced into a less opulent lifestyle tend to react violently. Google "Davies J-Curve." When the earth's population can no longer feed itself or the resources are no longer available to get food and material goods transported (inevitable), people will start looking for scapegoats to blame. Then the population is reduced dramatically = world wars. As I said before, that is no longer a viable solution. We live in an atomic age. We must plan ahead or see the world end. And it won't be due to climate change.

 

[VikingsGuy]

“ the logical conclusion of unchecked capitalism is one giant corporation that owns everything”.

Nah. That is a quote by someone who doesn’t actually understand capitalism. Capitalists are cannibals by nature. “Corporate raiders” have dismantled a thousand times more bloated, "scope creeping” corporations than the government regulators.

 

[woods89]

I realize I grew up in a much lower socioeconomic class than most of the members on here, but man, new construction has never crossed my mind.
As I get older, it’s interesting to see the way multi generational wealth stacks the odds against the less fortunate and keeps the poor man down.

And yet there seems to be a bit of a cycle to it. I've heard the saying in business that one generation works their tail off to make it, the next generation builds on it, as they grew up during the difficult years of making it, and the 3rd generation loses it, because they grew up in relative opulence as the 2nd generation was building, and lack the discipline and focus of the previous generations. This process takes longer generally with real trust fund type wealth, but I think in many cases the cycle does play out.

I personally think there is massive opportunity to be successful in many blue collar fields right now.

 

[woods89]

I feel like I’m probably the poorest member of the forum.

I have 4 kids, so aside from being the scapegoat of this thread, I'm right there with you. Although I don't own any fine French skis.......