AR 15 and 10 type rifles

[dcopas78]

I think we need to look at primary prevention methods. I work in education. I'm starting my 17th year. Here is just some anecdotal info that I've noticed. I teach health education so topics like depression, suicide prevention, trauma, etc. are very common place in my classroom. 1. When I first started teaching, I never heard one child talk about cutting. In the past 5 years, I've connected over 50 students to our guidance counselor for cutting. In the first 10 years of my teaching experience, we had 1 student committed for a psych eval. The last two years, we had 12, 4 of which had multiple visits. Our school psychologist is only in our building part time along with our school social worker. We have had more ED (emotionally disturbed) new diagnosis in the last 5 years for special ed than any other category. The amount of children on ant-anxiety meds would blow your mind.
The fact that all of these things that children are experiencing and the amount of mass shootings rising at an alarming rate is not a coincidence.
1. We don't have enough mental health professionals that are available to our families, both child and adult. In my school we have one counselor that services over 600 middle school students and we share a psychologist and a social worker with our other schools in our district.
2. An hour of counseling will easily be cancelled out if we then send our children right back to the same environment that justified counseling to begin with.
3. Suicide and depression rates are at an all time high
4. We as a country want to blame, not step up to the plate and lend a hand (the country is in desperate need of volunteers, foster homes, big brothers/sisters, adoptions, role models, mentors, even just a friend.) And I don't blame people for not wanting to get involved...it is a huge commitment and the baggage that some of these families and kids carry is daunting.
Lack of HUMANE human connection, IMO, is the root cause of all of this. Just think about any dysfunctional family that you know of. Is there HUMANE human connection in that family. Probably not.

My wife's school district has one psychiatrist for three buildings (1-6). Some of the stories I hear from here about here 6th grade kids are downright frightening. Their home lives are nonexistent, parents are dead or in jail from drugs, many that are around are too busy to fool with their kids, so many have broken homes. They deal with crap I never dreamed of as a kid. I don't know the answer, but I have to believe positive and caring interaction with the kids, and getting them someone to talk to wouldn't hurt.

 

[beginnerhunter]

What frustrates me is when the gun control crowd says we aren't willing to "compromise". Well, compromising means both sides give up something in exchange for something they want. So my compromise would be deregulating suppressors in exchange for giving AR type firearms NFA status requiring a revenue stamp to purchase (You would have to grandfather current owners). That way enthusiasts could still obtain them but they would have more legal hurdles to face. We all know about the benefits of suppressors for hearing protection so it would be a good thing to get out of the deal (and they are rarely used in mass shootings). Next time around we could talk about mag restrictions in exchange for SBRs or something like that.

Would any of that come to pass? Probably not, but at least we could call the gun control groups out for not being willing to compromise.

 

[VikingsGuy]

"Appease the masses"

When was the last time anything appeased our masses?

What about the 22nd season of The Bachelor?

(Sorry for the snarky remark on a serious thread, but couldn’t help myself.)

 

[Jorgy]

I’m pretty neutral on UBC, but please site which mass shooting would have been stopped by universal background check?
I would love to hear your opinion on how you think magazine capacity limits would affect mass shooting incidents.
I’m not trying to be snarky I just really haven’t heard a good reason for either of those that’s just not totally based on the emotional argument “we have to do something”.

Well, if there was a better system in place, the Ohio shooter would never be able to own a firearm. In my mind, getting caught writing out a hit list would be a red flag.
As far as gun capacity, I think that is a pretty easy thing to understand. I don't think all the facts are out yet, but I believe what I saw was the Ohio shooter shot almost 50 times in 30 seconds.

And my "we have to do something" isn't a 100% emotional response. I don't believe in the mindset of "this won't fix everything, so lets not do anything"

When my youngest son went through a spell of depression, I took his guns away. He doesn't live in my house. I do have a key to his apartment. He was/is really pissed at me still. I don't care. Yes, if he is suicidal he can go out and buy another gun, or run his car into a tree, or take a bunch of drugs, but at least I took a step to help him.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Why would I care what anyone from those places has to say about it? Their countries are by and large either socialist, extremely corrupt, or plain dictatorships...and there's a reason for that-none of them had a 2nd Amendment.

I don’t think disparaging half the globe ads anything to this discussion. And while I do not fancy Western Europe’s dance with socialism, there are many very nice places and fully functioning democracies.

 

[Gr8bawana]

legislating, with the intent to appease, is a poor argument, and therefore direction to take.

I would rather take my chances in a free society than live in a police state.

By all means let's continue to do NOTHING!

 

[rmauch20]

Well, if there was a better system in place, the Ohio shooter would never be able to own a firearm. In my mind, getting caught writing out a hit list would be a red flag.
As far as gun capacity, I think that is a pretty easy thing to understand. I don't think all the facts are out yet, but I believe what I saw was the Ohio shooter shot almost 50 times in 30 seconds.

And my "we have to do something" isn't a 100% emotional response. I don't believe in the mindset of "this won't fix everything, so lets not do anything"

When my youngest son went through a spell of depression, I took his guns away. He doesn't live in my house. I do have a key to his apartment. He was/is really pissed at me still. I don't care. Yes, if he is suicidal he can go out and buy another gun, or run his car into a tree, or take a bunch of drugs, but at least I took a step to help him.

I’m unsure what system you’re referring to universal background checks?
As far his hit list, if it would’ve been reported to the local police or sheriff Dept he could of been taken in for a screening. In Kansas at least. So there is no need for additional laws on the books.

What magazine limit are you wanting to have in place? 50 rds? 25rds?
50rds in 30 seconds. I have no doubt in my mind I could best that using 2 25 round mags or even 5-10 rounders.

 

[Gut Shot]

By all means let's continue to do NOTHING!

But we are doing something. And it is the opposite of disarming people or restricting their rights.

Reasonable Measure of Prevented Mass Shootings
A reasonable analysis of mass shootings that were prevented by civilians with weapons would include events where a mass shooting (defined as 4 or more victims being shot) was either underway or very likely to begin, and was stopped by someone with a gun not operating in an official capacity as law enforcement. The following list reflects this criteria.
1. Nov 2017– A man started firing in a parking lot of a crowded auto repair shop in Rockledge, FL killing one and paralyzing another. Two of the employees had concealed carry permits and fought back, shooting and injuring the attacker and preventing any more damage.
2. Nov 2017– An off-duty Kansas City police captain shot an armed man in a local Costco when he announced “I’m an off-duty U.S. Marshal, I’m here to kill people”. The off-duty cop told him to drop the gun and not to move. When the gunman aimed his pistol at the officer, he shot him.
3. Sept 2017– A masked man entered a Nashville church and shot 7 people, killing one. A church usher was able to run to his car, grab a handgun and confront the shooter, saving untold lives.
4. May 2017– A man entered a bar in Arlington, TX yelling incoherently and began shooting, killing one. A customer with a concealed carry handgun engaged the shooter and prevented further injuries or deaths.
5. June 2016– A man began shooting outside a bar in Lyman, South Carolina. He shot 3 people before a fourth with a concealed weapons permit fired back, preventing more bloodshed.
6. July 2015– A Cincinnati man fired at 4 people, including a 1-year-old boy. One of the victims had a concealed weapons permit and shot back, hitting the attacker in the leg.
7. May 2015– In New Holland, SC a man pulled into a crowded fire department parking lot filled with children and firefighters and began firing into the air and pointing the gun at people. Two firefighters with concealed carry permits confronted the shooter and got him to put down his weapon. While no one was injured, this likely prevented a mass shooting.
8. April 2015– An Uber Driver with a concealed carry permit shot and injured a man firing a pistol into a group of people on a Logan Square sidewalk in Chicago.
9. March 2015– Police say a man likely saved the lives of several people when he shot and killed a gunman inside a West Philadelphia barbershop. During an argument, the man pulled out a gun and began shooting customers and barbers, there were even kids inside. Another man who had a legal weapons permit heard the shots from outside, rushed in and killed the shooter, likely saving lives.
10. July 2014– A psychiatric patient opened fire at a Pennsylvania hospital, killing one case worker. A doctor with a concealed weapons permit fired back and hit the shooter three times, allowing hospital personnel to tackle and subdue him. The police chief said “without a doubt, I believe the doctor saved lives."
11. July 2014– A military service member with a concealed carry permit shot and injured a man who fired at and threatened a group of four people outside a party in Chicago.
12. Jan 2014– After being turned away from a Portland strip club, a man returned with a gun and shot and critically injured the bouncer and proceeded to enter the club. Another bouncer with a concealed carry permit shot the attacker
13. Dec 2012– A man with a stolen AR-15 rifle entered the Clackamas Mall in Oregon and began shooting, killing 2 and critically injuring a third. Another man with a concealed carry permit confronted the shooter but didn’t fire because he feared he might shoot innocent bystanders. However, he claims the shooter saw him and this likely stopped the shooting spree, as he then ran into a stairwell and the next bullet the gunman fired was to kill himself. It’s debatable whether this mass shooting was stopped by this action, but there is evidence to support it.
14. Apr 2012– A man chased and shot at multiple church members in a church parking lot in Aurora, CO, killing one. An off-duty police officer happened to be there and shot the gunman, stopping the attack.
15. March 2012– A man kicked in and entered a side door in a Spartanburg, SC church with a shotgun and pointed it at the pastor and congregation. Another church member, a concealed weapon holder, acted quickly to subdue the attacker.
16. May 2009– During a birthday party two masked gunmen broke into an apartment in College Park, GA filled with 11 people. They separated the men from women, stole their wallets and cell phones, then proceeded to attempt to rape the women, mentioning they would kill them afterwards. One of the victims managed to grab his bag with a gun in it, then shot and chased off the attackers. The resident of the apartment said if not for the intervention, all the party goers would likely have been killed.
17. May 2008– A man entered a crowded bar near Reno, NV and fatally shot two brothers, as well as injuring others. When stopping to reload, another patron with a concealed weapons permit shot and killed him.
18. Dec 2007– After killing two at one Colorado church, a gunman drove to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and began shooting members leaving a Sunday service. As the gunman entered the church, a woman stepped out from a doorway, confronted the gunman and then fired 10 shots from 63 feet away, hitting the attacker once in the wrist and twice in a leg. He died in the hallway, barely 40 feet from where he entered.
19. Feb 2007– A man with a shotgun and backpack full of ammunition opened fire at Trolley Square in Salt Lake City, killing 5 and wounding 4. The shooter was quickly and soundly stopped by the Salt Lake City SWAT, but not before an off-duty police officer with a gun had cornered him and engaged in a gun battle, preventing untold deaths to others.
20. Jan 2002– A distressed student facing suspension entered the campus of Appalachian School of Law and killed three people, including the dean, and injured three others. He was stopped and wrestled to the ground by three students who were trained police officers. One of which ran to his car to get his service pistol before confronting the attacker.
21. July 1999– After a man rented a semi-automatic rifle at a gun club, he held three employees hostage and threatened to kill them. One had a concealed handgun and shot the gunman. While he only directly threatened three people, his suicide note detailed his desire to take many other lives.
22. Apr 1998– A middle school student took his father’s handgun and went to his middle school dance. He shot and killed one teacher and wounded 3 others. The owner of the dance hall grabbed his shotgun after hearing the shots and confronted and disarmed the shooter outside
23. Oct 1997– The Pearl High School shooting in Mississippi, which killed 2 and injured 7, was stopped by the assistant principal who got a pistol he kept in his truck to subdue the shooter.

 

[Guest member 25165]

Gut Shot,

You've listed 23 examples that spans the course of 20 years. As of Aug. 5th, there already have been 255 mass shootings in 217 days just in 2019. Unfortunately I don't think the majority of Americans will find this to be a good enough prevention strategy.

 

[Gut Shot]

The problem is you don't know how many defensive shootings have prevented mass shootings because the shooter was stopped.

Anyway, I could as easily offer that arming more people through something like constitutional carry would prevent even more mass murders. We need fewer gun restrictions to prevent these tragedies rather than more.

Also there are plenty of examples of murderers being stopped because their actions prior to them committing crimes gave away their intentions allowing law enforcement to act. Even without "red flag laws" that will eventually allow for the confiscation of your guns.

Also I had to cut the list as there was too much text to paste.

 

[Gut Shot]

And where did you come up with 255 mass shootings in 2019?

 

[Guest member 25165]

www.cbsnews.com/news/mass-shootings-2019-more-mass-shootings-than-days-so-far-this-year/

 

[Guest member 25165]

Gut Shot,

I wasn't trying to be critical of your stats. I am not in favor of gun laws that restrict law abiding citizens. I just think we have the best chance to prevent before the threat becomes a threat and not during if that makes sense.

 

[Gut Shot]

www.cbsnews.com/news/mass-shootings-2019-more-mass-shootings-than-days-so-far-this-year/

I'll be kind and not laugh...

If you get your information from sources with an agenda it will be wrong every time. What's that saying "figures never lie but liars often figure."

Here are FBI stats for "active shooters" not mass shootings in 2016 and 2017.
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-incidents-us-2016-2017.pdf/view

In both years there were 50 "active shooter" situations (not mass murders) total. How am I supposed to believe that this year there are already five times as many mass murders as there were active shooter events in the past two years?

 

[LWC55]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chicag...e-neighborhood-seven-dead-40-wounded-weekend/

46 people were shot in Chicago last weekend. It has the strictest GUN CONTROL around. No thanks

 

[VikingsGuy]

And where did you come up with 255 mass shootings in 2019?

A gun control advocacy groups keeps a list of all gun related incidents where 4 or more people are reported killed or injured. So if a bar fight gets out of control and 1 guy is shot to death and his 3 buddies are wounded it is labelled a "mass shooting". While I do believe the FBI has historically called "mass shootings" those involving 4 or more victims so this has a "factual basis", I believe it is misleading in the current context. Your average concerned but not particularly informed citizen this week is worried about the random gunman at a shopping mall or local school or some "hate crime" at a local church and is not aware that run of the mill gang killings, drug deals gone bad or bar fights where the vast majority of the victims involved in the altercation knew each other makes up the bulk of this list. I don't have time to go through their whole list but I would guess that there have been less than 20 shootings where random assailants gunned down 4 or more random victims for either no discernible reason or some vague "hate" reason. This is a perfect example of "factually accurate but purposely misleading" use of statistics in my opinion.

 

[LopeHunter]

I am a lifetime NRA member. I support gun ownership and use. I do not support all gun ownership and use. I will not be drawing the line in the sand so that all accessories and guns should continue to be sold and owned. The underlying premise we are somehow the last bastion against tyranny just does not pencil out for me.

I appreciate patriotism. I stand for the Anthem. I often side with the underdog when would be easier to fit in. I ask this. Do you foresee tyranny backed by the U.S. Armed Forces being pushed back and defeated by armed civilians?

I do not think for one minute any of the guns I own will stop a rapid, coordinated assault on my home at 3am by 3 or more persons trained in weapon use and on securing a building.

I do not think for one minute any of the guns I own will stop a tank, fighter jet, cruise missile, machine gun, mortar, robot, flash grenade, gas attack, or sonic weapon.

Keeping high-capacity and rapid-fire accessories for sale or even outlawing ownership of those items does not shift the outcome if the moment arises where it is time to repulse the entirety of the U.S. Armed Forces. Nor will having 10,000 rounds of ammunition. This is not the 1700s where the firepower is similar between civilians and the Government. This will be an asymmetrical fight. A noble fight can be taken up if tyranny arises but death will be the outcome.

As for the slippery slope when accessories are outlawed, Tommy guns used to be sold to civilians from 1921-34. A law enacted in 1934 changed that as well as required registration of all previously sold Tommy guns. Freedom survived. My family had guns then and do now. The past 85 years has not led to collapse of gun rights. We managed to find other ways to shoot at coyotes, protect jewelry stores, and punch holes in paper targets.

There are a lot of factors which are present when there is a mass killing here in America. There are mass killings that do not involve firearms at all. There are mass killings that are criminals attempting to target other criminals. There are prescription drugs used by young men and women with developing brains yet not many of the women are shooting up public places so is not the use of Rx alone. Social media and peer pressures. Stigma of mental health issues. There are violent aspects of entertainment though much of the same entertainment is also found and consumed in Canada and South Korea but not many mass killings there. Families are often fractured. Generational poverty. Generational failures to be productive members of society.

Working to address several issues at once is okay in my book. Criminals will continue to do criminal things. Good guys with concealed weapons and other firearms they have with them can help to counter the actions of criminals as can LEO. I see that as patriotic. A lot of the arguments I am hearing ring hollow based on my experiences for almost six decades.

 

[Trial153]

I don’t pretend to have the answer to this issue. I do know one thing for certain. The optics of saying we can’t prevent this so we shouldn’t try is a losing position politically and for the 2nd amendment. Standing pat is losing game plan and quite frankly a hand that been played for too long.

 

[Guest member 25165]

I'll be kind and not laugh...

If you get your information from sources with an agenda it will be wrong every time. What's that saying "figures never lie but liars often figure."

Here are FBI stats for "active shooters" not mass shootings in 2016 and 2017.
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-incidents-us-2016-2017.pdf/view

In both years there were 50 "active shooter" situations (not mass murders) total. How am I supposed to believe that this year there are already five times as many mass murders as there were active shooter events in the past two years?

This is the site where the info came from. I believe they are taking into account any shooting involving 4 or more people, even low profile cases we don't necessarily hear about. https://www.gunviolencearchive.org

 

[Rzrbck918]

A gun control advocacy groups keeps a list of all gun related incidents where 4 or more people are reported killed or injured. So if a bar fight gets out of control and 1 guy is shot to death and his 3 buddies are wounded it is labelled a "mass shooting". While I do believe the FBI has historically called "mass shootings" those involving 4 or more victims so this has a "factual basis", I believe it is misleading in the current context. Your average concerned but not particularly informed citizen this week is worried about the random gunman at a shopping mall or local school or some "hate crime" at a local church and is not aware that run of the mill gang killings, drug deals gone bad or bar fights where the vast majority of the victims involved in the altercation knew each other makes up the bulk of this list. I don't have time to go through their whole list but I would guess that there have been less than 20 shootings where random assailants gunned down 4 or more random victims for either no discernible reason or some vague "hate" reason. This is a perfect example of "factually accurate but purposely misleading" use of statistics in my opinion.

I agree and thought the same thing as I read through a couple of local examples. I don’t consider a robbery of a drug house where some people were shot on the same level as the El Paso massacre for he sake of this discussion. Looking at the Illinois stats was interesting...27 “mass shootings”.