any dirt bikers or off roaders?

[Hangar18]

EricAK - I answered 1_pointer's direct question, so the train of thought is there. I'm not sure what you mean.


Buzz,
Why do I think there is enough wilderness? Because I think so. How's that? I'm not going to start a pissing match. I gave my opinion because it was asked for by 1_pointer.

Areas of Lynx and Wolverine habitat are already closed to snowmobiling, as are other game winter range areas. Look on a map. You can find them in big red hatch patterns that say "Winter Range: Closed to motorized use December 15 - April 15" or something close to those dates.

How do snowmobiles adversely impact natural resources Buzz? Do they effect them a lot more than an out of control wildfire burning for weeks on end? I will tell you the Hayman fire did more damage to my brother's lungs than a lifetime of riding snowmobiles.

Also, you dont represent MY views on what is and what is not enough wilderness.

Hey Buzz, do I need to write "In My Opinion" out instead of the IMO acronym? Does that help?

Go ahead and make your smartass condescending comments Buzz.

 

[BuzzH]

Hey Hangar,

Where in this statement do you state your opinion?

"This nation has enough wilderness".

By the way, I'll base my thoughts on wilderness on FACTS. The fact is, we dont have enough wilderness and I'll list a pile of reasons why, if you want to hear them.

Do you even know, off hand, what percentage of the public lands in the U.S. are wilderness? What percentage do you think is enough? Are wilderness lands a true cross-section representing public lands across the country? How many thousands of miles of roads do you need for recreation? I guess 380,000 miles alone on FS lands is not enough? How many miles of BLM roads are there? How many acres of total land mass are open to mechanized travel? How many miles of roads exist on state lands in Idaho, MT, WY, etc.?

Look, if you pop off with ridiculous statements like the above, you should be able to defend your reasons....or maybe even come up with a couple.

As to wolverine and lynx, just closing a few areas does not mean they arent impacted.

As for the Haymen fire...could you provide some proof that your brother suffered any long-term health effects? The reason for asking is because when I was fighting fires on a yearly basis from 1987-1994, I was involved in a pretty exhaustive study on the effects of wildfire smoke on fire-fighters. According to the doctors/medical experts doing the study...seasonal and infrequent exposure posed no long-term health effects that they could document with any level of certainty...but hey, thats just what the experts said.

Oh, and this is fact:

You are going to lose more and more motorized access throughout the West...and thats really the only fact I care about...deal with it.

 

[Hangar18]

OK, I did not qualify that statement as my opinion, but I think a reasonable person reading that statement could assume that it was opinion. I did not back that statement up with any facts, therefore it is an opinion. I'll remember next time to say "I feel" or "I think" just so you are clear. Sound fair?

No Buzz, I don't have any facts to back up my assertions. I will tell you that I have felt like shit after going to a bar for an hour, stood outside my house during an inversion, and after standing along the road watching the Yellowstone fire burn. I have never felt like that after a day of snowmobiling. So let's chalk it up to personal experience. I do not doubt the experts' findings on long term effects from fighting wildfires.

Here are the facts I base my thoughts on:
106 million acres of wilderness in the USA
4 million acres of wilderness in Idaho
I have sawed up more wood in 5 minutes worth of firewood cutting than in a lifetime of snowmobiling, thereby knowing the impact of my snowmobiles is next to nothing.

As to wolverine and lynx, just closing a few areas does not mean they arent impacted

If they aren't there, how can they be impacted?

NO NEW WILDERNESS....We have enough.....In my opinion.

You win the keyboard debate Buzz.


As an afterthought, you have a lot of good information to offer. Try offering it in a constructive manner such that people will listen instead of popping off with condescending statements.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Custer County has been told that the designation will be an economic windfall for the area. The problem with this statement is that the Frank Church wilderness is just a few miles north. Stanley still virtually closes its doors in the winter. That equals no "Economic Development" windfall. People go there to see the Sawtooths, just like they go to Jackson Hole to see the Tetons. Most do not go to visit the Frank Church.

.

Is your comment on the Frank Church based on your "opinion" or on some actual facts? The Frank Church Wilderness brings people in from across the country to drop $$$$ in Custer County. Look at the threads on the Elk section of guys back East dreaming of coming out to hunt Unit 27. They sure as hell aren't driving thousands of miles to "road hunt", they are doing it for the experiences and hunting that only a Wilderness can offer.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Is your comment on the Frank Church based on your "opinion" or on some actual facts? The Frank Church Wilderness brings people in from across the country to drop $$$$ in Custer County. Look at the threads on the Elk section of guys back East dreaming of coming out to hunt Unit 27. They sure as hell aren't driving thousands of miles to "road hunt", they are doing it for the experiences and hunting that only a Wilderness can offer.

I see a lot of people with out of state plates driving the roads every year, dressed in orange. They sure look like they are hunting to me, and they sure don't seem to want to get to far from their rigs to "Enjoy" what the wilds of our region have to offer...

 

[Hangar18]

Is your comment on the Frank Church based on your "opinion" or on some actual facts? The Frank Church Wilderness brings people in from across the country to drop $$$$ in Custer County. Look at the threads on the Elk section of guys back East dreaming of coming out to hunt Unit 27. They sure as hell aren't driving thousands of miles to "road hunt", they are doing it for the experiences and hunting that only a Wilderness can offer.

The best way to research this (IMO) is to compare wilderness visits to total national forest visits, because that is the data the USFS reports. So research required a look at the recreation numbers from the National Visitor Use Monitoring project. Data comes from the Sawtooth, Payette, and Salmon-Challis National Forests. The Frank Church is also in the Boise NF, but wilderness visitation in the Boise NF is less than 1%, half then rate of the Payette, so one could reasonably assume access from the Boise NF is not occuring for the most part. Also, there are more wilderness areas in these three forests than just the Frank Church.

Sawtooth NF - Visitor Use Estimates

Salmon-Challis NF - Visitor Use Estimates

Payette NF - Visitor Use Estimates

According to these sources, there were 33,019 wilderness visits out of a total of 842,151 forest visits to the Sawtooth National Forest for the CY 2000. There were 34,178 wilderness visits out of 466,835 national forest visits to the Salmon-Challis NF for FY 2002-2003. 9,256 wilderness visits of out a total of 621,630 forest visits to the Payette NF for FY 2001-2002.

Totals come to:
Wilderness visits: 76,453
National Forest visits: 1,930,616



I would say that 96% qualifies as "Most". If you have some better data, please feel free to share.

 

[BuzzH]

From a buddy of mine: "You dont have to visit wilderness to appreciate the intrinsic values associated with it."

 

[Hangar18]

How much does your buddy's appreciation of the intrinsic value of wilderness contribute to Custer County's economy?


Don't take any of what I wrote as me being against existing wilderness. I never said it or implied it. I appreciate it as much as the next guy. I just don't think we need any more, especially the BWC....IMO

 

[BuzzH]

Hangar, can you explain to me under what law the USFS is required to worry about the Economy of Custer County?

I have a problem with every land management decision being decided strictly on the economics associated with surrounding communities, extractive idustries, and political agendas of the white house when laws like FLPMA and MUSYA say otherwise.

For your reading enjoyment, the Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act, section 4(a):

"harmonious and coordinated management of the various resources, each with the other, WITHOUT IMPAIRMENT of the productivity of the land, WITH EQUAL CONSIDERATION given to the relative values of the various resources, and NOT NECESSARILY THE COMBINATION OF USES THAT WILL GIVE THE GREATEST DOLLAR RETURN or the greatest unit output."

Where in there must the public commons be sacrificed so the economy of custer county can prosper?

As to the intrinsic values...the sweet thing about those values is that the American Public feels strongly enough about just that to see the need to increase the amount of land that is not "managed" by our political sharks in D.C.

What the American Public has to do is wake up and demand accountability from the agencies as well as the knot-head in the Whitehouse...

 

[1_pointer]

Hangar, thanks for your explanation. I agree with some and not with others; will leave it at that.

Buzz made a point I'd like to expand the discussion on:

The view from here is that Congress and the Wilderness Act have done nothing but protect rock and ice....

What are your guys/gals thoughts?

A good portion of the Wilderness areas that I know of are just that, mountain tops. Sure the beauty is protected, but for me I'd like to see more productive places with the same characteristics protected under the Wilderness Act. This would protect them now while they're not needed in production (or they would be) and allow future generations the option of utilizing them if needed. By then needs and wants of the public could be drastically different, plus technological advances may allow the extraction of resources in a much more friendly way. That is why I value wilderness and will support more wilderness designations.

 

[Hangar18]

There is no law, but this is precisely the selling point of this wilderness bill. Custer County will prosper economically, so says congressman Simpson.

As for the Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act, you and I value different things. I value my access in the winter, and respect the rules that govern my access. That has no economic value either.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hangar,

Did you notice (from your sources) how completely unimportant snowmobiling is in the National Forests???

In the Salmon-Challis it is Snowmobiling
0.03% % Participating

0.03% % as Main Activity


Whereas activities that are compatible with Wilderness have relatively HUGE participation rates.
Hiking / Walking
55.55
19.36

Horesback Riding
3.07
1.01

Bicycling
1.68
0.04

Non-motorized Water
8.76
1.81


Cross-country Skiing
0.07
0.02

Other Non-motorized
17.16
3.19

And we should worry about preserving access to less than 0.03% of the use??? If we are to cater to someone, lets cater to the hunters (1/5 visits) or the fishermen (1/4 visits).

 

[SageGhost]

here are some ATV websites !! enjoy..

www.idahoatv.org www.trailsource.com/scripts/three.asp?STATE=14157&TYPE=ATV
www.northidahoatv.org

if anyone is interested we will be going riding in a few weeks .

 

[JoseCuervo]

Sagegoast,

Did you give up trying to show any good that the Blue Ribbers do for hunting?

 

[SageGhost]

reply

of course not...unfortunately for the both of us, i have school on the latter
part of this week.... hump also i am tuning up my dirt bike for some riding tomorrow.. going to find some new hunting areas.

 

[SageGhost]

reply

hey gunner nice stats... did you get them from the same newspaper that stated BIRD WATCHERS spend more money than hunters here in IDAHO??

 

[JoseCuervo]

hey gunner nice stats... did you get them from the same newspaper that stated BIRD WATCHERS spend more money than hunters here in IDAHO??

Nahhh..... I got them from Hangar's links....

 

[SageGhost]

Hey Elk... One Question..

any dirt bikers in boise area want to go riding..

 

[Ithaca 37]

Sage, Buy the youth model. That's where your head's at. You came here claiming the BRC was a great thing for hunters and, when challenged to give some proof, you've given us nothing. Proving, once again, that many have been duped by the BRC. They rely on uninformed ATV riders, who can't think logically, to support their industry front group. Can't you see they're playing you for a fool?

 

[SageGhost]

reply....

good luck hiking on public land... hump if anyone is interested we are going to be riding dirt bikes in a few weeks north of boise... anyone interested please email or PM me.. thanks...