Anti_Hunting Dubya and Anti-Hunting White House Gut National Wildlife Refuge System.

[Tom]

... based on some disputed unilateral decree imposed on a dead guy 14 years ago?

C'mon Tom, time to MoveOn...

You can make up some real crap,

Did you just gloss over Saddam shooting at us almost daily till we built the international coalition to go into Iraq?

I think the agency ought to work on funding itself some more. Its got lots of resources, like get some money from you and me for hunting and fishing on those resources.

 

[JoseCuervo]

You can make up some real crap,

Did you just gloss over Saddam shooting at us almost daily till we built the international coalition to go into Iraq?

I think the agency ought to work on funding itself some more. Its got lots of resources, like get some money from you and me for hunting and fishing on those resources.

Tom
When was the last time Saddam shot at any ducks or geese on a Wildlife Refuge? Yes, I will gloss over Saddam's hunting, as he is dead.... Gotta MoveOn....

Do you think only hunters and fishermen should pay for the Refuge system?

 

[MattK]

Tom- It seems to me that the responsibility for funding Federal lands should fall on the Federal government paid by federal taxes. BTW- I've paid for the useage of Federal lands...it's called taxes. You can't put a price tag on walking through a National Wildlife Refuge. I have a better solution for you since you want National forest to pay for themselves...why doesn't the war in Iraq and Afghanistan pay for itself?

 

[cjcj]

Way to stay on topic Matt ..

 

[Nemont]

Tom- It seems to me that the responsibility for funding Federal lands should fall on the Federal government paid by federal taxes. BTW- I've paid for the useage of Federal lands...it's called taxes. You can't put a price tag on walking through a National Wildlife Refuge. I have a better solution for you since you want National forest to pay for themselves...why doesn't the war in Iraq and Afghanistan pay for itself?

God is going to strike me down for this as it will seem to support Tom's side.

Matt,

Why can't you put a price on walking through a NWR? They put a price on walking through any National Park like Glacier or Yellowstone.

I thought even the left viewed the are in Afghanistan as necessary and justified? So maybe you just meant the war in Iraq should pay for itself?

Nemont

 

[MattK]

Nemont- there are some National Wildlife refuges that have a useage fee to help minimize the cost and upkeep. It would almost be impossible to put a useage fee on all national forests...mostly due to enforcement. Could you imagine having to put a ranger at the boundary of all national forests? Impractical. Along those lines, do you believe the National Park system pays for itself? Not even close. Do you believe only useage should pay for the national park system? It only gets funded if a lot of people drive through every year? Government agencies are not made for profit or breaking even. You shouldn't have to depend on timber harvest, mining, hunting, tourism, to fund the upkeep of federal lands...just as I don't believe iraq and afghanistan should pay for themselves.

 

[Nemont]

Matt,

I don't believe that the National Forest should charge and I agree that it would be a nightmare. The NWR should be properly funded as should the National Parks, Interior Dept, BLM Forest Service etc.

I was just following up on your statement that you can't put a price on walking through a NWR, for the value of preservation, conservation and saving wild places I agree. The intrinsic value is beyond a dollar and cents value.

Nemont

 

[Tom]

I think the idea of Afganistan and Iraq is to pay now, so it doesn't cost us more later. We're stopping the bad guys from getting us, making it so the people there have a good life themselves.

There's all kinds of ways to put a price on US Fish and Wildlife items. $0.50 tax to think about it, we all pay that. $.50 to go look at it from a lookout or drive through, $.50 to step on it, etc. The price doesn't have to be the value, it just has to cover the costs, that would be a good way to go about setting the prices.

$2.5 billion deficit, divide that up amoungst the users, what does it come out?

I think its like when they first came up with the idea we need some game wardens to stop the slaughter of all the deer and antelope, etc.

A government agency can't run at a deficit, that's an idea to try also.

 

[MattK]

Tom- How much do you think it costs to run the Department of Interior, USFS, BLM every year. I doubt your $.50 is going to run it. It sounds like you are a proponent of higher taxes.

 

[Tom]

No, higher or new use fees, I'd rather it be done that way.

It costs a lot, I haven't seen a recent budget. They all loose money, even the National Park Service. "In FY 1992, the NPS spent about $1.3 billion; in FY 1990, nominal park entrance and user fees (e.g. for camping) generated about $55 million in revenue." The USFS looses, "In fiscal year (FY) 1992, the agency spent about $3.3 billion; in FY 1991, its lands generated about $1.2 billion in revenue, all but about $80 million of it from timber sales." The Dept. of Interior Fish and Wildlife Service doesn't do to good either, "In FY 1992, its expenditures were about $1.2 billion; in FY 1990, nominal entrance fees to the wildlife refuges generated about $2 million in revenue." The BLM does pretty well I think, "In FY 1991, the BLM spent about $1.1 billion; in FY 1991, its lands generated revenue of about $1.2 billion, chiefly from energy leases (about $1 billion) and O&C timber sales (about $164 million)."

its from a 1995 book by S.Lehmann.

I wish I had newer data, but I haven't found it. Looks like we should up a lot of fees and have some new ones to me. Why should so much land and resources put us more in debt instead of benefit us? If its worth so much to us, why don't those who value it and use it support it more?

I agree with you that its worth more than $0.50 each. Do you think its costs and benefits are managed well?

 

[JoseCuervo]

I think the idea of Afganistan and Iraq is to pay now, so it doesn't cost us more later. We're stopping the bad guys from getting us, making it so the people there have a good life themselves.

There's all kinds of ways to put a price on US Fish and Wildlife items. $0.50 tax to think about it, we all pay that. $.50 to go look at it from a lookout or drive through, $.50 to step on it, etc. The price doesn't have to be the value, it just has to cover the costs, that would be a good way to go about setting the prices.

$2.5 billion deficit, divide that up amoungst the users, what does it come out?

I think its like when they first came up with the idea we need some game wardens to stop the slaughter of all the deer and antelope, etc.

A government agency can't run at a deficit, that's an idea to try also.

Tom,
Just when did Iraq ever threaten to attack us??? You gotta quite making stuff up....

And, in the case of the closest refuge to my house, it is not used that much by hunters, but is an important wintering ground for 10's of Thousands of Geese and Ducks.

HOw do you charge hunters on private lands for ducks and geese that winter on Refuge lands?

Your taxing idea is stupid. Can you think that maybe Dubya should fund it out of the budget?

 

[AZ402]

Tom,
Your taxing idea is stupid.

I agree with you there. Still wanting to see a reply to Nemont's question though??

 

[JoseCuervo]

I agree with you there. Still wanting to see a reply to Nemont's question though??

Let me go read it..... again. I assumed it was rhetorical. (ask NHY what rhetorical means if you need help..)

 

[JoseCuervo]

Jose,
Given your sensitivity to the Jewish faith and what they have gone through I am surprised you would reference Dr. Polya. He blames the Jews and the US/UK for every evil in the world. In addition he calls what is happening in Iraq a "Holocaust" however there are no death camps, no gas chambers, no systematic plan to kill all Muslim. Dr. Polya is about as object as Dick Cheney. Quoting him is of absolutely no value.

The Bush administration has never funded any Land Management agency with enough money. Have you found any financial discipline within the new Democratic majority in the House or just more pork barrell spending. Take a look at the supplemental war spending pork used to buy votes in the House.

Just re-read it, there was no question, just admonishment.

 

[Tom]

Tom,
Just when did Iraq ever threaten to attack us??? You gotta quite making stuff up....

You should learn to read before you post crap like that. Now are you going to say our planes being shot at almost daily is not being attacked?

Jose, can you see?

There were daily (almost) missile attacks by Saddam in the no fly zone, he was asking for it, remember all ths stuff he did wrong after being defeated for invasion of Kuwait?

“Operation Northern Watch continued to provide air security to the Kurdish population in the north. American and British aircraft continuously maintained the integrity of the NFZ, receiving anti-aircraft fire from Iraqi forces almost daily. The operation ran until its conclusion on May 1st, 2003.”

here's the source of the quote, but its lots of places, http://www.answers.com/topic/iraqi-no-fly-zones

You divide the refuge costs amoungst the duck hunters. They have duck bands to figure where the ducks go, they know where they get shot at and where they got banded at, you could figure it from that.

Bush is fixing it with his budget, the FWS looses money in the budget.

 

[AZ402]

there was no question, just admonishment.

Exactly......

 

[guppie9]

You divide the refuge costs amoungst the duck hunters. They have duck bands to figure where the ducks go, they know where they get shot at and where they got banded at, you could figure it from that.

Bush is fixing it with his budget, the FWS looses money in the budget.

So you want to band EVERY duck in the United States?????? And how much will that cost??? I guess hunters will have to pick up that cost too???

 

[JoseCuervo]

You should learn to read before you post crap like that. Now are you going to say our planes being shot at almost daily is not being attacked?

You divide the refuge costs amoungst the duck hunters. They have duck bands to figure where the ducks go, they know where they get shot at and where they got banded at, you could figure it from that.

Bush is fixing it with his budget, the FWS looses money in the budget.

Uhhhhh..... that is kind of the problem that this whole thread is about. Only took you 2 pages to understand that Dubya's buget means the Refuge system is loosing money, which is an anti-hunting stance from yet another TExan!!!

Are all you Texans this anti-hunting and this paranoid of dead guys, or just you and Dubya? You are thinking the US was attacked while flying armed military aircraft in another country's airspace? Hmmmm.....lemme' guess, you think it is the bank's fault when they get robbed?

 

[Tom]

You don't have to band all the ducks, they don't now. I can't speak for all Texans anymore than I can speak for all Idahoans or all hunters, get real.

Remember Saddam attacked the innocent in Kuwait, then we went over there and back his troups out of there, he lost a war there. Then we had the no fly zone to protect the north and south. It was because he lost a war.

I think its pro-hunting to get the hunters to support the wildlife instead of expect it be taken care of from federal handouts, where basically someone else pays for the bulk of it.

You think we should give Iraq back to the terrorists, so you can fish and hunt off the federal budget, that is a problem, if so. Just where do you think the money is supposed to come from for FWS, what do you think should be cut?
That's the problem, what do you cut, right?

Cutting recreational hunting and fishing, before support for troops, before fighting money against terrorists, etc. seems right on.

Has anyone suggested what to cut instead of FWS?

 

[AZ402]

Quick, someone lock this thread before my head explodes..........