All Diesel Vehicles Stopped!

[grizzly_]

Yeah, I've heard that same, "Wait til you see the price increase" argument from ranchers regarding meat prices and subsidized grazing on public land.

You are however exactly right that we pay for the roads and the we elect the public officials, but then those officials pick which people get special treatment so they don't have to pay gas tax (or compete with commodities from other countries, or get subsidized prices, or protective tariffs, or controlled yields, etc...). I won't even go into the BS that is the entire corn industry and tis effect on the economy and consumer pricing.

This "man" you talk about is picking winners and losers every day in pretty much all agribusiness and energy industries. Its all a farce. I say we let everybody compete evenly without special treatment or benefits for one over the other.

PS. You could also argue all those industries that benefit from red diesel are also forcing the rest of us to pay higher road taxes due to the millions of barrels of oil being sold without that revenue. Roads aren't free (and the future will likely have a different way of collecting road taxes anyway) but all else being equal, the money for infrastructure has to come from somewhere.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Meanwhile on http://www.thetruckersreport.com/truckingindustryforum/
a cordial debate over the Constitutional repercussions weigh stations have on the rights of hard working American operators.

So these check points started after OBAMA took office!?
Carry on.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Yeah, I've heard that same, "Wait til you see the price increase" argument from ranchers regarding meat prices and subsidized grazing on public land.

You are however exactly right that we pay for the roads and the we elect the public officials, but then those officials pick which people get special treatment so they don't have to pay gas tax (or compete with commodities from other countries, or get subsidized prices, or protective tariffs, or controlled yields, etc...). I won't even go into the BS that is the entire corn industry and tis effect on the economy and consumer pricing.

This "man" you talk about is picking winners and losers every day in pretty much all agribusiness and energy industries. Its all a farce. I say we let everybody compete evenly without special treatment or benefits for one over the other.

PS. You could also argue all those industries that benefit from red diesel are also forcing the rest of us to pay higher road taxes due to the millions of barrels of oil being sold without that revenue. Roads aren't free (and the future will likely have a different way of collecting road taxes anyway) but all else being equal, the money for infrastructure has to come from somewhere.

You do realise that the majority of fuel tax is intended to pay for road and infrastructure that can not be used by equipment. So asking a construction company running 5 or 10 scrapers at 250 gallon per day each. To pay for the roads they are building but cannot use is funny at best.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Why is this thread even still alive?

 

[grizzly_]

elkmagnet, I'm probably not doing a very good job of relaying my thoughts. My perception of this discussion isn't limited to red diesel. In my original post I made reference to the larger issue of rancher welfare and in my above post I referenced tariffs, subsidies, taxes, and other artificial influence placed by the government on individuals and specific industries.

My point is not whether one group should, or should not, pay a specific tax (in this case, fuel tax). Its that once the government picks winners and losers, which they do in a myriad of ways, it negatively affects a much broader picture.

I also made a direct response to the claim that non-highway industries paying road taxes would cause a price increase to consumers which I contend would be directly offset by the ability to lower gas taxes for on-highway fuel because of the millions of additional barrels of oil now subject to that tax, which would in turn lower overall economic impacts both in direct savings at the pump and in thousands of other products that are shipped using on-highway means.

I am not necessarily 'pro' or 'anti' red diesel. My point is the larger macro-economic issue is not as simple as the above post made it seem where the average consumer would see a net increase in costs for certain products. And also that there is an issue in this country with certain industries being promoted/protected by the government, which I disagree with.

This thread has probably extended beyond "Sportsmen Issues" though so it might be best to let it go.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Grizzly
I agree with your stance even if we disagree on user specific taxes such as red fuel.
I'm not sure how this was ever a "sportsmans issue". It probably should have been posted in "The campfire"...

 

[matt meyer]

maybe the thread is dead now.
I have to admit, It was interesting reading though

 

[whiskeydog]

Pretty simple...if you drive on a road payed for by the gov't, they should have the right to ensure you are using the appropriate fuel. Dipping your tank on your own property would be illegal. If you don't like it, don't use the roads...

 

[appaloosa]

Let's reduce the size of government by getting rid of the farm fuel subsidy and thereby the need to check for it.

I'll bet all the libertarian farmers/ranchers would fight that to their graves. Oh the irony.

^^ hilarious!

 

[Zach]

Pretty simple...if you drive on a road payed for by the gov't, they should have the right to ensure you are using the appropriate fuel. Dipping your tank on your own property would be illegal. If you don't like it, don't use the roads...

I'm sorry, where did they get that money again?

 

[James Riley]

I'm sorry, where did they get that money again?

From people who paid for those roads; not the cheats who try not to.

 

[whiskeydog]

I'm sorry, where did they get that money again?

so by your twisted logic, game wardens don't have a right to check you tags, and the TSA doesn't have a right to search your luggage.

 

[Zach]

so by your twisted logic, game wardens don't have a right to check you tags, and the TSA doesn't have a right to search your luggage.

And by yours the government had free reign to spend your taxes as they see fit without over site? It must be wonderful to live in Xanadu. Say hi to Olivia for me.

James, so people who buy red pay zero tax going to roads & infrastructure?

I'll check back in a week or so if I have nothing to do.

 

[James Riley]

James, so people who buy red pay zero tax going to roads & infrastructure?

That's an illogical conclusion to reach from my post. Try again.

Never mind, I'll simplify it for you: The taxes they do pay for roads and infrastructure do not cover the debt they owe for driving on roads and infrastructure with with red. Just as the taxes I paid in 1970 don't give me a free ride in 2016.

 

[dannyb278]

Why is this thread even still alive?

I checked in to ask the same question.

 

[Zach]

That's an illogical conclusion to reach from my post. Try again.

Never mind, I'll simplify it for you: The taxes they do pay for roads and infrastructure do not cover the debt they owe for driving on roads and infrastructure with with red. Just as the taxes I paid in 1970 don't give me a free ride in 2016.

Do you have a link showing your statistical conclusion?
I'm abhorred, the gubment doesn't actually spend the tax money for which it is earmarked...
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba761

Shouldn't you be out scouting with your bow, rifle or pistol?

 

[James Riley]

Do you have a link showing your statistical conclusion?
I'm abhorred, the gubment doesn't actually spend the tax money for which it is earmarked...
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba761

Shouldn't you be out scouting with your bow, rifle or pistol?

The conclusion is self-evident. Your abhorring is shared by me, but irrelevant to the self-evident conclusion.

Rifle this year, second season. No need to scout. I know the area like the back of my hand, and the animals that live there. I intend to try something entirely new this year:

I applied for what I wanted for me and my son. Finally got around to opening all the envelopes from CPW. I got stuck with a point and an Elk OTC 2nd Season Rifle in Colorado. My son got a point and a refund. I've usually made quite a deal out of prep and the hunt itself; usually bow, sometimes muzzle loader. I won't bore you with the details. This time I'm going to try something different.

There's a place up the hill that burned hot this summer. One little patch of aspen now glows gold in a sea of black. Must have been wet or something. Nothing in there now and probably won't be come season. Anyway, I'm going to go there, find a spot to sit down, and I'm going to sleep. If I move, I'm going to crawl or roll. I'm going to fart, burp, stink and go back to sleep. When I'm tired of sleeping, I'll go back to sleep.

I'll bring a shit-ton of MREs and a bison robe. I'll eat some, then go back to sleep. I'll bring my knife and whittle, if I'm not too tired from all that sleeping. I might bring a camera so I can share my suffering with you all. And I'll bring my 1886 45-70 just in case I'm not sleeping when some bull wanders by. I might draw a bead but I'm not sure I'll squeeze; it's about 2 pounds and I might be too tired. Sure would hate to have to gut, skin, quarter and pack. Might have to get my son to do all that for me.

 

[whiskeydog]

Do you have a link showing your statistical conclusion?
I'm abhorred, the gubment doesn't actually spend the tax money for which it is earmarked...
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba761

Shouldn't you be out scouting with your bow, rifle or pistol?

you've kinda just disproved your entire argument. the "gubment" has enough money to maintain the roads, AND pay for searches for dyed diesel, AND still has left over for other projects...wow...first example of efficiency I've ever seen from them aside from the logistical train from Kuwait to Baghdad.

as for not covering the debt they owe...that's an easy one. buying dyed diesel and driving on the highway = not paying road tax ... kinda like sneaking in the side door at the movie theater.

In reality, I too have little respect for the people involved with the waste and inefficiencies of our government lately, but I also have a hard time with how you seem to be advocating for what is essentially stealing.

 

[Zach]

you've kinda just disproved your entire argument. the "gubment" has enough money to maintain the roads, AND pay for searches for dyed diesel, AND still has left over for other projects...wow...first example of efficiency I've ever seen from them aside from the logistical train from Kuwait to Baghdad.

as for not covering the debt they owe...that's an easy one. buying dyed diesel and driving on the highway = not paying road tax ... kinda like sneaking in the side door at the movie theater.

In reality, I too have little respect for the people involved with the waste and inefficiencies of our government lately, but I also have a hard time with how you seem to be advocating for what is essentially stealing.

Point to where I advocated for the theft? I simply asked you where the money the the government spends comes from. Your post makes it seem as if the government actually paid for the roads. They may appropriate the money towards roads, the people that pay the tax "paid" for the roads. I don't think they are maintaining the roads. Plenty of potholes I see yet to be filled. I25 could use some widening, but they are looking at new ways to fund that, above and beyond the existing taxes.

And the TSA reference, really? They are doing a great job, they had this little old lady in secondary that last time I flew. I thought she looked suspicions. So you're all for stop and frisk?

I wonder what percent is of taxed vs. red in farm equipment? I can only speak for myself, but 2 tractors and 1 swather(which haven't been on the public roads) and all the fuel in them is taxed. I don't see the benefit of red with just a few hundred acres of hay that I do. So, I guess I'm paying extra taxes.

Have a good weekend! Only 1 more week till my archery season starts.

 

[James Riley]

They may appropriate the money towards roads, the people that pay the tax "paid" for the roads. I don't think they are maintaining the roads.

Actually, our taxes don't cover much. The deficit does. And I'm not merely talking about the fiscal or trade deficit but, rather, the international petro-dollar banking that allows us to run those deficits. Tax payers in this country are getting a ride. It may not be a free ride, but we sure as hell aren't paying for what we get. Not even close. Those who punk the system with red gas on public roads are just milking the system for more.

Why has your archery season not started yet? I thought it was well under way in Colorado.