A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

[A207X2]

When I moved to MA I had to get one to own any firearm.

And do you feel that it was a good thing for the state to insist you do so? Has it made you safer? Not being a smart ass or a trope statement. Do you believe that it has helped stem gun violence in MA? Serious question.

 

[SAJ-99]

I would rather roll the dice on my children being involved in a mass shooting vs raising them in fear with a security guard and metal detectors at the doors of their schools.
I don’t think that’s good for the overall mental health of our society.

My daughters school has it. In the 15min line up before school the kids go in exits closest to their rooms. At start of school, only entrance is through the front door which is secure with cameras on staged entry. Kids live with the stuff everyday it becomes normal. They don’t think twice about it.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Yes, I am listening to myself. My question to you is: Do you even understand the purpose of the 2nd Amendment, and why it was written the way it is? Your statement below makes me tend to believe that you don't.

Again, you need to understand the 2nd Amendment. Here's an example:

10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes​

• U.S. Code
• Notes

(a)The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b)The classes of the militia are—
(1)
the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2)
the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

So here is the militia that the 2nd Amendment refers to. There are two classes of militia, Organized and Unorganized. Every US citizen between the ages of 17 and 45 fall into one of these two classes.

"A well regulated militia"... As written in the late 18th century "well regulated" was understood to mean "well supplied", that is to say had modern weaponry and equipment at his disposal. That definition has not changed. That means high capacity magazines, along with the most popular sporting rifle in America. "being necessary for the security of a free state"... This was to ensure that there was recourse to an oppressive government - such as what we endured during the American Revolution. The founding fathers wanted to make sure that the people were never allowed to be subjected to a government that oppress the people by taking away their weapons (see: "The Shot Heard Round The World"), "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". Again, see "The Shot Heard Round The World".

So, back to my "common sense" gun violence ideas, I have a very good understanding of what I'm saying. I want every criminal to wake up in the morning thinking "Is today going to be the last day of my life? Am I going to mug the wrong guy, otherwise known as THEY GOOD GUY WITH A GUN?". They will no longer have their soft targets such as these ridiculous "Gun Free Zones" to prey on. And if they do still feel the urge to tryd harm, injure, or kill someone they better think twice because if they are caught and convicted - they're off the planet. AND I'M FINE WITH THAT. Why wouldn't you be?

Wake up. This is the 21st century. The homestead militia as a national defense entity stopped being anything approaching practical or useful by 1860. And if you think a band of misfits could overthrow a "tyrannical" government with hunting rifles or even ARs, you are clearly delusional. To make that concept work everyone should have access to Blackhawk helicopters and SAM missiles. It's the only way a homemade militia could win. Read the history of Bloody Kansas or the REAL history of the Western Vigilantes. Probably more innocent people were strung up by vigilantes than real bad guys. One of Montana's early governors (Toole) narrowly escaped being accidentally executed in the middle of the night at a roadhouse on Evaro Hill. Fortunately, someone with enough credibility who could identify him happened to show up in the nick of time. My great uncle wasn't so lucky. Just a young kid, he was strung up in Lusk, WY on suspicion of horse theft. According to my great grandmother his real crime was being mentally retarded. And how about the group of seven Chinamen traveling through Montana to the Cariboo Gold Rush. A band of cattlemen vigilantes killed them all, apparently just for the sport of it. That militia mentality only served America up a lot of grief during its early growth. And it continues to do so. People who continue to think they need guns to overthrow the govt are so out of touch with reality they easily fit being classified deranged. Nuts with guns protected by the law = time to change the law so those nuts can't have guns. The louder you scream govt overthrow as essential to gun ownership, the more determined sensible 21st century Americans will be to take them away from you. Do the future of gun ownership a favor and drop the militia angle. Realistically it's nonsense and only hurts the cause.

 

[DouglasR]

Kids live with the stuff everyday it becomes normal. They don’t think twice about it.

That’s what I’m worried about

 

[A207X2]

Wake up. This is the 21st century. The homestead militia as a national defense entity stopped being anything approaching practical or useful by 1860. And if you think a band of misfits could overthrow a "tyrannical" government with hunting rifles or even ARs, you are clearly delusional. To make that concept work everyone should have access to Blackhawk helicopters and SAM missiles. It's the only way a homemade militia could win. Read the history of Bloody Kansas or the REAL history of the Western Vigilantes. Probably more innocent people were strung up by vigilantes than real bad guys. One of Montana's early governors (Toole) narrowly escaped being accidentally executed in the middle of the night at a roadhouse on Evaro Hill. Fortunately, someone with enough credibility who could identify him happened to show up in the nick of time. My great uncle wasn't so lucky. Just a young kid, he was strung up in Lusk, WY on suspicion of horse theft. According to my great grandmother his real crime was being mentally retarded. And how about the group of seven Chinamen traveling through Montana to the Cariboo Gold Rush. A band of cattlemen vigilantes killed them all, apparently just for the sport of it. That militia mentality only served America up a lot of grief during its early growth. And it continues to do so. People who continue to think they need guns to overthrow the govt are so out of touch with reality they easily fit being classified deranged. Nuts with guns protected by the law = time to change the law so those nuts can't have guns. The louder you scream govt overthrow as essential to gun ownership, the more determined sensible 21st century Americans will be to take them away from you. Do the future of gun ownership a favor and drop the militia angle. Realistically it's nonsense and only hurts the cause.

I'll remain civil on this thread.

 

[406dn]

I’m not particularly religious myself and I don’t believe morality can be legislatd, but it seems if there’s a pretty strong push in this country towards an intentional immoral, valueless, type of degeneracy and it is pushed by the side of the political spectrum that wants to see gun control in response to violence.
I can’t help but imagine that gender wokeism, racism, two years of fake paranoia, social isolation and masking of children, intentional destruction of the nuclear family, etc. is making anything better. These problems certainly aren’t caused by two parent households, promoting traditional, Christian values, hard work and decency.
Maybe your kid doesn’t need seven pharmaceuticals. Maybe he just needs to go split some firewood, and for his dad to beat his ass for lying and for his mom to make a nice dinner, for the family to all sit down and have together.
If someone’s daughter aspires to be a tik tok influencer making slutty dance videos or an only fans “model”, instead of an electrical engineer or (gasp) a stay at home mom/wife, perhaps that’s a sign that somewhere things went a bit off the rails.

Regarding, these problems not being caused by two parent households promoting traditional Christian values...I'd offer Josh Dugger as a blight on society that comes out of that demographic. While not a killer, yet anyway, he has harmed numerous lives.

Bad apples can come from anywhere.

 

[4ohSick]

I would rather roll the dice on my children being involved in a mass shooting vs raising them in fear with a security guard and metal detectors at the doors of their schools.
I don’t think that’s good for the overall mental health of our society.

How is it OK that those are the two choices?

 

[Randi]

And while HT entertains mature debate, the political class carries on with meaningless pandering and virtue signaling. . .

Senate GOP blocks domestic terrorism bill, gun policy debate

Democrats' first attempt at responding to the back-to-back mass shootings in Buffalo and Uvalde, Texas, failed in the Senate Thursday as Republicans blocked a domestic terrorism bill that would have opened debate on difficult questions surrounding hate crimes and gun safety.

www.startribune.com

and Schumer just blocked the GOP school safety bill

vikingsguy, you have done an excellent job of keeping this thread on track, should we nominate you to run for congress

 

[MTGomer]

Please elaborate.

First I want to say that this is NOT me critiquing individual parents and their parenting techniques. I don’t have children and don’t plan on judging what individuals decide to do with theirs’.

It is more of a criticism at the societal level, of why we have become as a nation and what we consider normal and abnormal behavior.

It seems that there’s a tendency, instead of parenting, for society to be set up in a way that responsibility for children is somewhat removed from the family. Whether that be day care, schooling, or a distraction of an iPad when out at dinner onstead of engaging in conversation with the adults.
Kids that can’t or don’t want to sit still for 8 hours a day indoors are put on ADHD medicine. The number of teenage girls that self describe themselves as having social “anxiety” is very high. I don’t think it’s crazy to think that most people should be able to live happy, enjoyable lives without needing to ingest chemical, mind altering pharmaceuticals daily.

I think it’s hard to ignore the breakdown in the nuclear family from say the 1960s to now. There’s more single parent households and the facts are clear on the statistical outcome for children of single parent households compared to those from dual parent households.
I don’t think there’s any one thing you can put your finger on and say “that’s it, that’s the thing” but more of a bunch of straws that collectively eventually break the proverbial camel’s back.

https://www.cchrint.org/pdfs/violence-report.pdf

 

[Nick87]

I don’t want anyone assuming what I’m “gunna do”

We don’t make laws, rules or regs for what people are “gunna do”

Only what they are doing, or have done

Good luck with that.

 

[CAV67]

I always find this topic to be so convoluted. Firearms are tools and the real "weapon" is those with evil in their heart and mind. I have always enjoyed shooting both during my childhood, military and now adult years. I am an avid hunter and enjoy the outdoors. I am also a student of history (notice I did not claim to be an expert), and my thoughts on the development of this nation have always surprised me. The founding fathers in my opinion were way beyond their time...The constitution and bill of rights are such unique documents and time resistant. If only every citizen truly understood the basics of these documents and their profound meaning on every person. The ignorance of our society is galling...You have a President that espouses that you couldn't own a canon in the revolutionary days...Fact check UNTRUE! There sits upon the battle field of Bunker Hill a privately owned canon. Owned by John Stark. Yea that guy who said "give me Liberty or Death!" 2A is there to protect your life, liberty and happiness. Our problem today is that our society has stifled our founding principles, quashed our religious beliefs and allowed those with mental problems out of the asylum. The sensible thing to do at this point is to focus on bringing that "weapon" with evil in its heart and mind to heel. We do this by bringing education and religion back to the way it was when we were younger. If we don't, our follow on generations will be stripped of their rights and enslaved. There is nothing wrong with teaching gun safety in schools, bring back programs like the Boy Scouts (for boys!) and Girl Scouts (for - you guessed it - girls!), allow prayer in schools and hold our leaders to their oath of office. The same one I took when I entered the service. Call me if you forget it congressmen/women and senators... Be happy to recite it for ya!

 

[OntarioHunter]

I'll remain civil on this thread.

Me too.

I almost forgot to include the KKK in that historical list of glorious gun toting 2nd Amendment protected American militiamen. Those "good guys" wore out a lot of lamp posts during a hundred years of Jim Crow.

 

[4ohSick]

and Schumer just blocked the GOP school safety bill

vikingsguy, you have done an excellent job of keeping this thread on track, should we nominate you to run for congress

The school safety bill just codifies a clearinghouse that is already available. It obviously has not stopped school violence. I get that it's partisan hackery, but I also understand not giving them the out to say "we did something" when it's a big nothing-burger.

 

[4ohSick]

I always find this topic to be so convoluted. Firearms are tools and the real "weapon" is those with evil in their heart and mind. I have always enjoyed shooting both during my childhood, military and now adult years. I am an avid hunter and enjoy the outdoors. I am also a student of history (notice I did not claim to be an expert), and my thoughts on the development of this nation have always surprised me. The founding fathers in my opinion were way beyond their time...The constitution and bill of rights are such unique documents and time resistant. If only every citizen truly understood the basics of these documents and their profound meaning on every person. The ignorance of our society is galling...You have a President that espouses that you couldn't own a canon in the revolutionary days...Fact check UNTRUE! There sits upon the battle field of Bunker Hill a privately owned canon. Owned by John Stark. Yea that guy who said "give me Liberty or Death!" 2A is there to protect your life, liberty and happiness. Our problem today is that our society has stifled our founding principles, quashed our religious beliefs and allowed those with mental problems out of the asylum. The sensible thing to do at this point is to focus on bringing that "weapon" with evil in its heart and mind to heel. We do this by bringing education and religion back to the way it was when we were younger. If we don't, our follow on generations will be stripped of their rights and enslaved. There is nothing wrong with teaching gun safety in schools, bring back programs like the Boy Scouts (for boys!) and Girl Scouts (for - you guessed it - girls!), allow prayer in schools and hold our leaders to their oath of office. The same one I took when I entered the service. Call me if you forget it congressmen/women and senators... Be happy to recite it for ya!

Bro. That was Patrick Henry.

 

[woods89]

Regarding, these problems not being caused by two parent households promoting traditional Christian values...I'd offer Josh Dugger as a blight on society that comes out of that demographic. While not a killer, yet anyway, he has harmed numerous lives.

Bad apples can come from anywhere.

That's a little like saying all gun owners must be like the shooter in this case.
There are many, many families out there with 2 caring parents that are raising children in a fairly traditional way, and it's working well for them. They also aren't trying to make TV shows about their lives.

 

[brocksw]

First I want to say that this is NOT me critiquing individual parents and their parenting techniques. I don’t have children and don’t plan on judging what individuals decide to do with theirs’.

It is more of a criticism at the societal level, of why we have become as a nation and what we consider normal and abnormal behavior.

It seems that there’s a tendency, instead of parenting, for society to be set up in a way that responsibility for children is somewhat removed from the family. Whether that be day care, schooling, or a distraction of an iPad when out at dinner onstead of engaging in conversation with the adults.
Kids that can’t or don’t want to sit still for 8 hours a day indoors are put on ADHD medicine. The number of teenage girls that self describe themselves as having social “anxiety” is very high. I don’t think it’s crazy to think that most people should be able to live happy, enjoyable lives without needing to ingest chemical, mind altering pharmaceuticals daily.

I think it’s hard to ignore the breakdown in the nuclear family from say the 1960s to now. There’s more single parent households and the facts are clear on the statistical outcome for children of single parent households compared to those from dual parent households.
I don’t think there’s any one thing you can put your finger on and say “that’s it, that’s the thing” but more of a bunch of straws that collectively eventually break the proverbial camel’s back.

https://www.cchrint.org/pdfs/violence-report.pdf

I've often wondered if the 60's movement to get women in the workforce has a measurable effect on this type of thing. I'm absolutely not against women in the workforce or anything like that. But, like I said, I do wonder if that had unintended consequences on children, crime, etc. So many variables though, it might be impossible to really get the granularity needed to statistically back that up.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

https://www.brainandlife.org/articles/how-do-video-games-affect-the-developing-brains-of-children

 

[woods89]

I've often wondered if the 60's movement to get women in the workforce has a measurable effect on this type of thing. I'm absolutely not against women in the workforce or anything like that. But, like I said, I do wonder if that had unintended consequences on children, crime, etc. So many variables though, it might be impossible to really get the granularity needed to statistically back that up.

And how much money did corporations make by increasing the supply of labor, which stagnated or lowered wages? I have no data, but it's something I've wondered about.

 

[BucksnDucks]

I'm curious what the Second Amendment absolutists would say to the Framer's of the Constitution (John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington) if we could time travel them to 2022 and try to explain to them how 19 dead children and 2 dead teachers is all part of an inalienable right? Would they still right it as they did?

Probably something about disintegrating family values, godlessness, and immorality. Simply because 19 dead children and 2 dead teachers are Not all part of an inalienable right. There was murder before semi auto rifles and will be in the absence of them.

 

[brocksw]

And how much money did corporations make by increasing the supply of labor, which stagnated or lowered wages? I have no data, but it's something I've wondered about.

That has crossed my mind as well. No better way than to keep the cost of labor down then by doubling supply of said labor. I'm not an economic expert and did not live through the 60s or 70s, so my contribution to that discussion will be more on the side of asking questions and not supplying answers.