Wyoming Pronghorn Numbers
- Thread starter Topgun 30-06
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Topgun 30-06
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We are stating that the G&F is not complying with their own statute just like Bob mentioned before I got back on here to reply. Bottom line is that they should not have the draw until after the Final Regulations are approved and posted in late April so that NRs have a month or more to apply AFTER any changes are made just like you residents so that shit like this doesn't happen! It's easy for you to type that last comment when you live right out there and don't have to worry about applying without "rolling the dice or wait another year". FYI this early draw is discussed every year and sooner or later the G&F Commission is going to have to address it and change the draw dates to match the dates for residents to be fair. I know there is an attorney from Utah that has been applying for the Type 1 tag for quite a few years with the intent of hunting with both a bow and then a rifle in the late season if he doesn't tag out in September. He finally drew the tag this year and had 11PPs to finally get that tag. Now he either has to hope that the change doesn't go through or scrap his plans to hunt the rut. The only other possibility is to appeal to the G&F for a refund and giving him his points back. G&F is great for the most part, but they screwed the pooch on this one if the change goes through to eliminate their archery hunt after they applied in good faith and dropped a lot of money on their PPs and fees. What would your attitude be if they made this change between now and the final vote, which they could do the way they are violating Reg 44 right now? Maybe your answer is that you wouldn't care because it still wouldn't hurt you as a resident since you have through 5/31 to apply.
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ShootsManyBullets
Well-known member
It's a BS move and anyone using common sense can see that.
What? they expect people to apply then keep logging in to see if there were rule changes after the fact?
How about they make any changes BEFORE the application period so people know the rules BEFORE they apply? That would be too simple though.
What? they expect people to apply then keep logging in to see if there were rule changes after the fact?
How about they make any changes BEFORE the application period so people know the rules BEFORE they apply? That would be too simple though.
Topgun 30-06
Active member
The only proposals they can LEGALLY make and change under Regulation 44 are the TAG TOTALS and nothing more! This comes up every year and the scuttlebutt over the last couple years has been that G&F was going to change the NR elk draw date to match the resident draw, but it hasn't happened yet. It may take a lawsuit for them to change the draw to the latter date since they haven't been in compliance for many years and this may be the final straw that brings about that change!
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WapitiBob
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true
In my opinion they aren't technically in violation, but as I and others have mentioned it's a BS move to change the goal post without ample notification and comment. If you're strictly a bowhunter, past history said to apply for the type 1 and go special archery, and there was no indication anything was going to change. Clicking on the "get involved" tab, then "public meetings", then looking for any proposed changes isn't "public notification" by any stretch.
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I don’t have anything more to say to this other than it’s completely incorrect. They’re proposing a new bison hunt area and many new cow/calf elk and doe/fawn deer tags, among many other changes that aren’t strictly changes to quota numbers. You can say it’s a violation, but that’d require a heck of a lot of really smart people to be looking the other way.
A later deadline/drawing would be nice and make total sense, but I’m contending that non residents are provided the tools to make an informed decision until the deadlines are moved.
Man, I’m ready for turkey season.
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Topgun 30-06
Active member
IMHO they are in violation if they make any substantive changes other than tag totals after a draw is held when those proposals are not law yet until late April! I would bet that if this came to a lawsuit being filed the G&F would lose because it's not really difficult to see they are doing something the law does not allow. If that happened, any NR that is involved in this could possibly ask and be given a monetary settlement if they won. I don't think that should come about when this situation could be easily resolved by either not changing anything but tag totals or even better changing the draw date to match the resident draw like it should have been from the getgo.
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Topgun 30-06
Active member
IMHO you would not make a very good attorney because Regulation 44 spells out exactly what it allows and anything like you mentioned other than changing tag totals AFTER a draw is a violation no matter how you want to cut it! How can you say NRs are provided the tools to make an informed decision when they would have to know all the ins and out of the G&F is hard to believe. Many times people even call in to a G&F Office when they have a question and the G&F personnel can't even give them a correct answer. A lot of people have been very surprised this early draw has not been changed or even adjudicated and the latter may be what happens if this restriction goes through after many NRs applied in good faith before that change went up on the website on 1/22.
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WapitiBob
Well-known member
"They’re proposing a new bison hunt area and many new cow/calf elk and doe/fawn deer tags, among many other changes that aren’t strictly changes to quota numbers."
We're talking apples and oranges; nr Elk draw vs the main draw.
We're talking apples and oranges; nr Elk draw vs the main draw.
Not really. App/mod deadline for bison has long passed. Guess that should get moved to May too because I’m not lawyery enough to find and read the proposed regs on the website.
The point of that post was to remind TG that wgfd proposes lots of changes to regs every year that aren’t just adjusting quotas.
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Here is something that would be more logical. Hold comments for proposed changes addressing 2019 this year instead of trying to push it through for a year where tags have already been issued. Not sure what the rush is to get it done for this coming season other than bureaucracy can never be very efficient or proactive.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Straw man argument.
The main draw for moose, sheep, goat, bison, will happen after the commission approves the quotas.
The early NR elk draw happens, and tags are issued, before the seasons are even approved by the Commission.
As of right now, there are tags that have been issued for at least one hunt/area that the commission has not yet approved. This happens quite frequently and it has caused trouble in the past.
What it does, is forces the biologists to come up with recommendations in the "packet", that most years is not complete until mid-late January. What gets even more complicated, is that sometimes, new hunts are brought to the commission after the NR draw happens. Meaning 100% of those tags are issued to residents and NR's are not even able to apply. When quotas INCREASE, NR's are screwed out of elk tags and receive less than 16%. When quotas DECREASE, then NR elk tags are over-issued beyond the statutory 16%, and Residents are shorted tags.
Myself and another guy that posts on this board brought this to the attention of the GF a few years back and the GF ended up issuing additional LQ tags to Residents. We also made a modification to the draw that sort of levels out the disparity somewhat. It makes sure that at least residents receive 84% of the commission approved quota. This still doesn't make a true 84/16 split, but does help significantly.
But, bottom line is that the early draw is creating a lot of problems for both NR and R hunters and also the Department. It also costs the department additional funding to conduct 2 draws rather than just one.
Easy solution is to hold one drawing for everything...AFTER the commission approves the quotas.
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BuzzH
Well-known member
For new seasons that would work...for quota changes, it wouldn't fix anything.
The even better solution is to just have one drawing after the commission approves the quotas.
Sure, the draw occurs after the quotas and seasons are approved, but my point was that the application and modification deadlines are well before the regs are approved.
One draw in May/June with app periods ending in Apr/May would be way simple.
Topgun 30-06
Active member
That is what we are saying in opposition to what you've been saying all along and what makes it a violation of Reg. 44 when the NR draw is before final approval! It shouldn't be a guessing game on the part of NRs the way it is right now. The first part of your sentence doesn't apply to the NR elk draw.
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Topgun 30-06
Active member
What "Document " are you asking for?
Chapter 44. REGULATION FOR ISSUANCE OF LICENSES, PERMITS, STAMPS, TAGS, PREFERENCE POINTS AND COMPETITIVE RAFFLE CHANCES
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/March_CH-44_Final.pdf
Show me where it's a violation now that I've shown you the reg that you've clearly never read.
I was referring to moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, and bison - all of which have app deadlines long before the regs are approved while the world continues to spin. I think a later draw would be great. I also think you're off your rocker with this statute violation crap.
midwesthunter
Well-known member
Thanks for posting,
one of my favorite units has doubled the buck quota over the last 4 years give or take, and point creep still follows along with the increase in tags. Unit must be doing pretty good to meet that supply and demand. My other unit with out points stayed neutral this year
one of my favorite units has doubled the buck quota over the last 4 years give or take, and point creep still follows along with the increase in tags. Unit must be doing pretty good to meet that supply and demand. My other unit with out points stayed neutral this year
Good luck if you decide to apply. I have nonresident relatives who have marginal points for the antelope tag they want, and I'm afraid we'll see a spike in the points needed to draw this year because of the fee increase and people dumping points.
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