Wyo Task Force - Nonres Comments!

[jimss]

Buzz 0 on both accounts! You know nothing about me! Now tell us how many big game tags you have this year! I bet you are a little embarrassed to share this?

I remember a few years ago on this website that you were doing everything in your power to back and support DIY nonres hunters in the legislature? Times sure have changed!

 

[Dougfirtree]

I'd be curious to hear people's thoughts on how 90-10 affects type 4 cow elk tags. The proposal earlier in the year, had changed the allocation for all LE elk tags, not just type 1 and 2 bull tags.
Seems to me most residents would be looking to up their odds for type 1 and 2 tags and use type 6's for filling the freezer. Is there enough resident interest in type 4's? If not, what then happens to them? Combined with the high cost of those tags compared to other states, it seems to me this would be a good opportunity to pull type 4's from the 90-10 calculus.
Anyway, I'm genuinely curious. I have opinions, but they're only based on limited experience and understanding.

 

[TOGIE]

man, does this conversation repeat itself at least once a month or what

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz 0 on both accounts! You know nothing about me! Now tell us how many big game tags you have this year! I bet you are a little embarrassed to share this?

I remember a few years ago on this website that you were doing everything in your power to back and support DIY nonres hunters in the legislature? Times sure have changed!

I smell rags burning...its your pants on fire.

Well Jim, I wasn't going to chime in as you used another good thread on an internet forum to make your sixth-grade school yard case that folks are up to no good. But, you've now made such an uneducated ass of yourself in this thread that I have no choice.

You might want to go to the threads on other forums where you and others are implying, and some stating outright, that I pay for points and/or guiding services with product. Here are the facts and when you hear/read them and realize how far out in the weeds you are, hopefully you will never come back to this forum (we could only be so lucky).

Simply put, I don't pay anyone for points or guiding services. That might disappoint you. You like to tell the world how I operate and you seem to think your lies and bullshit about me are justified.

Here is how it goes, and you can ask many people on this forum who have been guests on our show, how it worked for them.

First, we do party apps with family and friends. In this hunt, I wasn't even on the app. Matthew had 12 points and Larry had 9. That was an average of 10.5. Neither of them did it because they wanted to piggy pack on the points of others. Matthew and Larry have a life-long close relationship. Larry treats Matthew like the son he never had. Matthew thinks Larry is the grandfather he never got to know. When given the choice to apply in a max point unit or drop down for the fun of hunting with Larry, Matthew didn't even blink.

I did two party apps for hunts in 2018. One was NM, with my Uncle and one was AK bear with Spitz, neither state has a point system. In 2017 I drew one party app hunt, an Arizona deer hunt with a college buddy from 30+ years ago. I had 11 points, he had 5. I shared my points with him to make sure we would draw. I wanted to hunt with him and fulfill a long-standing commitment we had made to hunt together. In 2016, Matthew had a ton of NV deer points. He and I did our normal party app, since he prefers to hunt with others for the social aspects. We could have had a higher number, but we decided to offer Spitz to be part of our app, bringing us down from 8 to 5. I could go back many years and list every party app we have done, some with me having more points, some with others have more points. They were all family or friends, not strangers I sent PMs on hunting forums begging them to share their points, as some seem to be doing these days.

So, take your points schemes and the rumors around such and stick them in your ear.

As for paying for guiding services, via giving gear, you are again a clueless and seemingly sniveling about the fact that a lot of people have friends who actually help each other for the benefit of the friendship they have. The rest of this is going to disappoint you and make you look like a bigger fool.

When we finished that WY hunt, Buzz handed me the clothes we had loaned him; yeah, the same clothes you are implying that he was "paid" for illegal guiding services. He returned the loaners the same as my Uncle Jim did in NM, the same as Spitz did in NV, the same as most every single hunter we've ever imposed on by saying they must use our gear if they are on our show. Seems the least we can do is offer to loan them the gear we demand they use.

Yeah, I said loan. For your clarification, Webster defines a loan as - verb 1.borrow (a sum of money or item of property).i.e. "the word processor was loaned to us by the theater"

The same applies to the optics Buzz was using. Those optics, including the harness you want to make such a big deal about, are right here on the floor next to me. If you want me to post a pic, I will.

Futhermore, Buzz paid for all of his own gas, brought his own food, and incurred plenty of his own expense to help a friend he has known for over a decade. He did eat a few of our Hostess Donettes, so if you want to call WY G&F or the outfitter board in WY over a few doughnuts, knock yourself out. He took time off work and I suspect he used PTO on those days. He didn't get paid or reimbursed a single penny for his time or expenses. Sorry to ruin your fantasy dreams of a "gotcha moment."

I didn't chime in on the Rokslide, Bowsite, and MM threads when you and others started the bullshit rumors (actually lies) as some sort of justification to defend your point piggy back scheme. It comes with the territory I operate in and saying anything to set the record straight would seem like I was overly sensitive. So, I let it die and moved along, laughing at the uninformed bullshit that gets spewed on Al Gore's internet. Whether out of ignorance or malice, it is a frequent part of my daily life and I most often ignore it. In this case, you've made it clear your motive is malice, either against me, or someone who incurred a lot of time and expense to make good on a promise we had made to share a hunt together some day.

To come on the forum I own, that I manage, and say this uninformed bullshit is about par for the course, based on what I see you and others post on forums. Ask IDBugler, Lawnboy, Schmalts, Oak, Spitz, MN Taxidermist, NV Longbow, Cushman, Randy11, or any of the others who have been on our episodes. They were all asked to use our gear. In every instance it was loaned (refer to definition above). They were kind enough to wear and use what we asked, and for that I owe them a large debt of gratitude.

Sitka, the gear you state has been given to Buzz as illegal guiding payments, sends me camo sets of every size, expecting us to have guests wearing their clothes, no matter the guest's size. These clothes get loaned to guests. I take them back after the hunt and loan them to the next person when we have a guest of that size. I have a huge inventory of Sitka gear, sorted by size, down in my basement that I can send a picture of if is helps you realize how far out in the weeds you are in these crazy implications. When Sitka tells me to give away the old stuff when they send me new stuff, it ends up going to the person who can most easily come and get it. Leupold sends me optics to make sure every person has a set to use. Same with Howa. Same with (insert sponsor name here).

Contrary to the uninformed belief of you and others, these companies don't send me truck loads of gear to hand out like candy. Howa even has to "loan" me the rifles, due to how their attorney interprets the ATF rules related to non-dealer transfers. I read on MM where it was stated I pay people with Howa rifles. Might want to ask Howa why I have to do an annual inventory and why I still get memo-invoices for every firearm they have sent me in the last eight years.

Your comments are so clueless that it is not worth going on any further. I suggest you go to MM, Rokslide, Bowsite, and the other places where you and other ass clowns like to post this false shit and share this thread with them. Not sure it would make a difference, given the strange motives that must drive the childish crap that folks find comfort in spewing about things they have no idea of.

Standby, as in about ten minutes I will have a photo posted of the binos you are claiming I paid to Buzz as some sort of backdoor, under the table, illegal outfitting payment.

Buzz and several others have personally attached me on this and other websites for years and it upset me when it appeared that both of you were doing things that were borderline illegal. Now that the truth is out I am super glad to hear that Buzz returned the clothes, binos, etc. It's obvious that the WG&F would be knocking at your doors if you didn't do this.

What a worthless turd....

 

[Jwill]

Since the 90/10 discussion came up I've thought a lot about how hunters in other states would react if their opportunity were in any way limited so NRs could have "opportunity" in their state. I feel pretty confident that if you told people in North Carolina and Virginia, where I grew up, that they could only shoot 4-5 deer instead of 5-6 so nonresidents could hunt in the state their response would be "they can go f@*! themselves."

For what it's worth, my comments to the task force included outfitter and increased landowner tags being a redline for my support.

I'll go on record right now that I'd give up half my tags to keep our opportunities open for NR's.

 

[rwc101]

I'll go on record right now that I'd give up half my tags to keep our opportunities open for NR's.

I think you're in the extreme minority and that Virginia residents deserve way more than 2.5 deer.

 

[cur dog]

A few thoughts.....

I hear a lot of talk about entitlements for residents.
Its very obvious that our HT, TF members are eager to rub NR noses in 90/10.

So, here's a question. Does anyone on the TF truly care about the resource?
Is anyone thinking outside the box?

Here's a wild idea, let's go to 75/25. Earmark 15% of the NR moneys to research and habitat.
Imagine the projects that could be completed. Highway crossings for wildlife, CWD research, water tanks for antelope, deer and bighorns. the list goes on and on.
Wouldn't both Resident and Non resident hunters be happy with that arrangement? Imagine the the good that could be done with these moneys every single year.

Or, is it really about want and greed?

 

[brownbear932008]

That's an apples to oranges argument. I don't think southern and eastern hunters have the same hostility toward NR hunters. Lots of deer, lots of opportunity. Nobody is going hungry.

Wasn't my thought last year when I ran into 4 SC hunters a few miles back in some VA wilderness that I frequent. The year before that it was NC and PA guys. So honestly I know exactly how Western hunters feel. That place definitely isn't crawling with deer either but produces nice deer. Blame the internet and forums such as this. It's a double edged knife.

I'm all for 90/10 and the prices well that's simple supply and demand at work. If you can't handle that than out of State hunting may not be for you. It's their State and their wildlife let them do as they please with both. If at some point we bought into the point game and the game changes not much we can do about it except whine and complain. I dropped 10 sheep points back I guess it was the late 90s in WY when they went to like $50 or whatever and didn't look back. Each year I seem to add a new State to that list of dropping out of. Eventually Hunting a Western State is going to be a pipe dream for most IMO. Just don't see how they will find themselves though.

 

[cur dog]

I think you're in the extreme minority and that Virginia residents deserve way more than 2.5 deer.

I kinda doubt that.

 

[rwc101]

I kinda doubt that.

Damn. You think they deserve less than 2.5 deer?

 

[BuzzH]

A few thoughts.....

I hear a lot of talk about entitlements for residents.
Its very obvious that our HT, TF members are eager to rub NR noses in 90/10.

So, here's a question. Does anyone on the TF truly care about the resource?
Is anyone thinking outside the box?

Here's a wild idea, let's go to 75/25. Earmark 15% of the NR moneys to research and habitat.
Imagine the projects that could be completed. Highway crossings for wildlife, CWD research, water tanks for antelope, deer and bighorns. the list goes on and on.
Wouldn't both Resident and Non resident hunters be happy with that arrangement? Imagine the the good that could be done with these moneys every single year.

Or, is it really about want and greed?

Money isn't the solution to the problem...if it were, we'd be awash in bighorns, moose, goats, pronghorn, mule deer, etc.

The GF is sitting on a nearly a years worth of operating reserves.

We're already funding the things on your list and more...yet our herds continue to decline. Water tanks and highway crossings, while helpful are not going to reverse the downward trends in bighorns, pronghorns, mule deer, and moose.

My thoughts are that I see RESIDENT hunters advocating for wildlife here way more than any NR ever thought of. I see Resident hunters at project work days, attending meetings, looking for solutions to the many problems, working for the NGO's here, working for the GF Department here, attending banquets, writing letters to the various agencies, sitting on advisory boards, committees, etc. etc. etc.

To say Residents don't do at least 90% of the work for wildlife, public lands, etc. here would be just a flat lie. That work should result in 90% of the resource going to them. I don't have to guess about them having earned it.

Its great that NR's show up for vacation with a tag and a few hundred in cash to sling around the economy...but that isn't tough, that's doing the bare bones minimum.

Why I feel guilty paying the paltry sums I do for the opportunity to hunt in other States as a NR...I'm not doing anything more than scribbling a check, and that's nothing to crow about.

 

[RobertD]

I don't care how they react when there's lots of opportunity. Easy to be generous when there's lots to go around (even if there's little public land). What happens when they loose 1/5th of their deer population in 20 years like we have with pronghorn? They don't have any hostility because they don't face NR demand because they aren't offering anything unique to nonresidents.

You don't know me bro, I'm hostile as hell about my deer hunting!

On a serious note, I think I'm in one of the highest NR demand areas in the whole southeast, and I welcome all NRs (basically Floridians) who want to come up and hunt. But I want residents to get our opportunity first, if it ever comes to having to cut someone out.

And that, in a roundabout way, is why I support you Wyoming guys' efforts to do the same.

 

[rwc101]

You don't know me bro, I'm hostile as hell about my deer hunting!

On a serious note, I think I'm in one of the highest NR demand areas in the whole southeast, and I welcome all NRs (basically Floridians) who want to come up and hunt. But I want residents to get our opportunity first, if it ever comes to having to cut someone out.

And that, in a roundabout way, is why I support you Wyoming guys' efforts to do the same.

Exactly how I feel. I've done 0 to push 90/10, but as soon as you advocate for the residents you become the bad guy.

 

[homers]

If a state drastically changes the NR scheme making it nearly impossible to draw, then they should refund the points money collected over the years back to the people buying useless points.

 

[cur dog]

Wasn't my thought last year when I ran into 4 SC hunters a few miles back in some VA wilderness that I frequent. The year before that it was NC and PA guys. So honestly I know exactly how Western hunters feel. That place definitely isn't crawling with deer either but produces nice deer. Blame the internet and forums such as this. It's a double edged knife.

I'm all for 90/10 and the prices well that's simple supply and demand at work. If you can't handle that than out of State hunting may not be for you. It's their State and their wildlife let them do as they please with both. If at some point we bought into the point game and the game changes not much we can do about it except whine and complain. I dropped 10 sheep points back I guess it was the late 90s in WY when they went to like $50 or whatever and didn't look back. Each year I seem to add a new State to that list of dropping out of. Eventually Hunting a Western State is going to be a pipe dream for most IMO. Just don't see how they will find themselves though.

I get what you are saying. I've run into NR hunters here in my home state. But, I don't feel like they are taking from me. Those are public lands, and open for all to enjoy. If a NR kills a buck, I'll be the first to offer help packing or dragging.

I quit applying to NM a couple of years ago. I have the worlds worst luck. As a diy guy, I'll likely never draw a good tag there.
Wyoming is headed the same direction. Within a few years, Diy hunters will be lucky to get 5-6% of LQ tags.

 

[BuzzH]

If a state drastically changes the NR scheme making it nearly impossible to draw, then they should refund the points money collected over the years back to the people buying useless points.

If you can show me where you promised anything other than a bonus point, in writing...I'll take up your case with the task force.

If not, you got exactly what you paid for.

 

[Steve O]

If you can show me where you promised anything other than a bonus point, in writing...I'll take up your case with the task force.

If not, you got exactly what you paid for.

They were not sold as BONUS points. They were sold as PREFERENCE points. Preference points give the person with the highest number of points the tag. You are taking away 125% of the sheep tags available from the people who INVESTED in PREFERENCE points as non residents. That’s bull$$$$.

 

[BuzzH]

They were not sold as BONUS points. They were sold as PREFERENCE points. Preference points give the person with the highest number of points the tag. You are taking away 125% of the sheep tags away from the people who INVESTED in PREFERENCE points. That’s bull$$$$.

Right, you paid for your preference points, you got your preference points...still have them. Nobody is taking them away.

License allocations are decided by the Residents.

Its how it works. Several states have sheep tags available to NR's...I apply in most of them, even those that have changed their systems over the years to benefit their residents.

Nothing to get bent out of shape about.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

So the big question is, what will the WY guides and outfitters ask for in return for backing 90/10 for residents? Seems to be the elephant in the room that no one wants to discuss, particularly WY residents.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

So the big question is, what will the WY guides and outfitters ask for in return for backing 90/10 for residents? Seems to be the elephant in the room that no one wants to discuss, particularly WY residents.

It has been brought up, on HT, by WY residents…but since there are 893 threads that either devolve into, or in the case of this one, start as the same old thing it’s getting hard to keep track.