drahthaar
Active member
Now all the wolves above my house are safe. Dang!! A good sized pack just moved in too. The bio said most the wolves in 130 were killed in the middle fork!?!? I think they need to redraw some wolf districts again.
Wow!! 130 closed already
- Thread starter drahthaar
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belly-deep
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That is strange. Especially considering the Middle Fork has a much lower concentration of hunters than the South Fork and Swan.
drahthaar
Active member
The bio was a little befuddled about it too. Not what he expected. I would like to see 130 split 3 ways, middle fork, southfork/east valley swan face, and swan valley
I can't even imagine where these guys are shooting them in the middle fork. Maybe shooting across the river into the Park???
I can't even imagine where these guys are shooting them in the middle fork. Maybe shooting across the river into the Park???
thecrittergitter
Well-known member
drahthaar
Active member
Well, Vore doesn't have anything to do with the wolves, I was talking to Laudon, he is the wolf bio.
Vore scares me enough with the tentative regs the way they are. I doubt he will put any recommendations in to the commission to alleviate the issues up here, providing the reputation he brought here. We can't handle any more unlimited doe tags on top of the youth hunt, on top of the BS lion problems we have going here, on top of the PILES of griz and black bears, with a few wolves thrown in, and expect to have ANY deer left. Especially with the winters we get here in NW MT.
This is an important year for hunters to POUND the commission to do this right, not be 2 years too late in reaction.
I even want to take it a step further and put antler restrictions on bucks, like no shooting spikes. Coupled with an easy winter, which we are experiencing so far, I think we can turn things around.
Vore scares me enough with the tentative regs the way they are. I doubt he will put any recommendations in to the commission to alleviate the issues up here, providing the reputation he brought here. We can't handle any more unlimited doe tags on top of the youth hunt, on top of the BS lion problems we have going here, on top of the PILES of griz and black bears, with a few wolves thrown in, and expect to have ANY deer left. Especially with the winters we get here in NW MT.
This is an important year for hunters to POUND the commission to do this right, not be 2 years too late in reaction.
I even want to take it a step further and put antler restrictions on bucks, like no shooting spikes. Coupled with an easy winter, which we are experiencing so far, I think we can turn things around.
drahthaar
Active member
How about just making the quota 3 times more
Whatever, that works too.
belly-deep
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Something tells me they don't have a very accurate count on wolves.
IIRC, their griz estimate before the hair study was about 30% low.
IIRC, their griz estimate before the hair study was about 30% low.
fyi-the commission is working on the tentatives for next 2 years on the 9th and if it's not in now you can forget it for next 2 years. been there done that.
Agenda-http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/commission/nr_0089.html
I feel your pain with Vore-he is worth absolutely O to the hunter.
Agenda-http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/commission/nr_0089.html
I feel your pain with Vore-he is worth absolutely O to the hunter.
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Its going to suck for everyone in this state if region one doesnt do something drastic this year on regs. Game numbers are so far gone now. All of us fatheaders and bitter rooters cant go south for elk and east for deer. I never thought whitetails could ever got beat down this bad. Its worse than the after math of 96-97. I shot my buck this year and felt terrible about it.
ram24
New member
i sure hope they kill more wolves in the south fork of the flathead, there is a pile of them between firefighter and clorinda creek
drahthaar
Active member
It's all done this year ram, that is what I was talking about, that is lumped in with the middle fork. I am waiting to see the distribution map this year at the public comment meeting, Jan 7 I believe. Laudon puts a pin where each one was killed, pretty interesting when you see it.
drahthaar
Active member
Here is my fear.
I am afraid our comments about R1, and our "measley whitetail and mulie" issues are going to be lost in the shuffle with all the comments regarding the almighty elk-in-the-breaks, OSL's, Block mgt, and this elk working group upheaval that is happening AGAIN!
The commissioners are human, and they are going to get run down and beat down with comments regarding those issues. I mean, let's be real, R1 is kind of the red headed stepchild with regards to "hunting MT". Aside from some long dream to hunt the "Bob", or something, non-residents don't dream of coming here to buck the brush and fight the grizzlies.
I tried talking to Vore once about elk, he basically poo pooed me, that its whitetails that are the main index here. Probably true, that is fine(but also ironic, as elk numbers seem to consistently rise over the years, up until last winter, even with all the preds and declining elk numbers in the "elky" parts of the state). But when it comes to the commission and the rest of the state nobody cares about R1 and the deer. Which is sad, because what was once a real trophy zone(101,109, 110,120,121,132, look em up in B&C) for truely giant whitetails and mule deer, has been reduced to rubble.
Just my 2 cents, a random post that I have been thinking about, while reading other forums. Hope you get my drift.
I am afraid our comments about R1, and our "measley whitetail and mulie" issues are going to be lost in the shuffle with all the comments regarding the almighty elk-in-the-breaks, OSL's, Block mgt, and this elk working group upheaval that is happening AGAIN!
The commissioners are human, and they are going to get run down and beat down with comments regarding those issues. I mean, let's be real, R1 is kind of the red headed stepchild with regards to "hunting MT". Aside from some long dream to hunt the "Bob", or something, non-residents don't dream of coming here to buck the brush and fight the grizzlies.
I tried talking to Vore once about elk, he basically poo pooed me, that its whitetails that are the main index here. Probably true, that is fine(but also ironic, as elk numbers seem to consistently rise over the years, up until last winter, even with all the preds and declining elk numbers in the "elky" parts of the state). But when it comes to the commission and the rest of the state nobody cares about R1 and the deer. Which is sad, because what was once a real trophy zone(101,109, 110,120,121,132, look em up in B&C) for truely giant whitetails and mule deer, has been reduced to rubble.
Just my 2 cents, a random post that I have been thinking about, while reading other forums. Hope you get my drift.
Drath,
Get a hold of Flathead Wildlife Inc and see what they are working on. Chuck Hunt is the President, and is the General Manager at Oh's Body Shop.
There is strength in numbers. We pushed hard to have larger quotas in R1 during the first wolf hunt and got them. THere's no reason we can't change regs on Deer, Elk, Lion, Bear, Moose, Sheep and Goat.
Remember too that wolf is set each year. There's a lot of talk at FWP of breaking up those bigger units and going with more selective harvest. This is still a learning experience when it comes to wolves. I think the season will get more refined as we move forward.
Also remember that you can attend the commission meeting at your regional FWP Headquarters. They skype the meetings in, so you don't have to come to Helena.
Get a hold of Flathead Wildlife Inc and see what they are working on. Chuck Hunt is the President, and is the General Manager at Oh's Body Shop.
There is strength in numbers. We pushed hard to have larger quotas in R1 during the first wolf hunt and got them. THere's no reason we can't change regs on Deer, Elk, Lion, Bear, Moose, Sheep and Goat.
Remember too that wolf is set each year. There's a lot of talk at FWP of breaking up those bigger units and going with more selective harvest. This is still a learning experience when it comes to wolves. I think the season will get more refined as we move forward.
Also remember that you can attend the commission meeting at your regional FWP Headquarters. They skype the meetings in, so you don't have to come to Helena.
BuzzH
Well-known member
draht,
The same thing happened in Region 2, dont feel left out. Myself and alot of others were pointing out that mule deer numbers were on the ropes TWENTY years ago. I was assured by FWP biologist Bob Henderson that I was full of it...mule deer were fine and we could sustain a week long mule deer doe season. It was obvious starting in about 1985 that mule deer numbers were taking a serious hit...yet Henderson kept saying, "But our counts on Boyd Mtn are showing good numbers"...Yeah, showing that mule deer throughout the Swan and Mission Mtns. winter on Boyd. He never once considered that most of the mule deer in the Lower Blackfoot dont winter on Boyd...but most of the mule deer harvest was coming from the local Blackfoot herds.
Finally, when mule deer were completely in the tank...10-15 years later, "all of a sudden" there was a mule deer crisis. Oh, no shit? I'm shocked!
Same thing happened with the whitetail hunting as well...2 over the counter doe permits, another through the draw, and your a-tag as well. Pretty quick everyone is shocked that whitetail deer numbers are down...who'd a thunk it? They thought the same thing, that you couldnt beat down whitetail numbers...WRONG.
People can harp all day long about predators...but I can say for sure that the biggest contributing factor with declining deer populations in Region 2, particularly the Blackfoot and Swan has been multiple doe tags. Its hard to imagine how many productive whitetail does left those drainages in the back of trucks...
I wish you luck up there, but I can tell you that you will be hard pressed to find a more reactive agency anywhere. Schizophrenic wildlife management at its finest...
The same thing happened in Region 2, dont feel left out. Myself and alot of others were pointing out that mule deer numbers were on the ropes TWENTY years ago. I was assured by FWP biologist Bob Henderson that I was full of it...mule deer were fine and we could sustain a week long mule deer doe season. It was obvious starting in about 1985 that mule deer numbers were taking a serious hit...yet Henderson kept saying, "But our counts on Boyd Mtn are showing good numbers"...Yeah, showing that mule deer throughout the Swan and Mission Mtns. winter on Boyd. He never once considered that most of the mule deer in the Lower Blackfoot dont winter on Boyd...but most of the mule deer harvest was coming from the local Blackfoot herds.
Finally, when mule deer were completely in the tank...10-15 years later, "all of a sudden" there was a mule deer crisis. Oh, no shit? I'm shocked!
Same thing happened with the whitetail hunting as well...2 over the counter doe permits, another through the draw, and your a-tag as well. Pretty quick everyone is shocked that whitetail deer numbers are down...who'd a thunk it? They thought the same thing, that you couldnt beat down whitetail numbers...WRONG.
People can harp all day long about predators...but I can say for sure that the biggest contributing factor with declining deer populations in Region 2, particularly the Blackfoot and Swan has been multiple doe tags. Its hard to imagine how many productive whitetail does left those drainages in the back of trucks...
I wish you luck up there, but I can tell you that you will be hard pressed to find a more reactive agency anywhere. Schizophrenic wildlife management at its finest...
T
tjones
Guest
Drath,
Sorry to say but IMO you are really going to be up aganist it without help from your bio. Been there done that with Vore. You are and will be living 2004 to 2009 in the Root. It is very hard to get anything on the tentatives on your own, it all starts with the bio. I feel your pain.
Sorry to say but IMO you are really going to be up aganist it without help from your bio. Been there done that with Vore. You are and will be living 2004 to 2009 in the Root. It is very hard to get anything on the tentatives on your own, it all starts with the bio. I feel your pain.
drahthaar
Active member
That is exactly what I have been trying to tell people. Two years ago they dropped the "b" tags from 5 to 2 in 170/132, I was pleading them to cut them comletely. The tentative regs came out again, and they are still giving 2 'b' tags to unlimited numbers of people, good for private land only. Still not good enough, its got to stop.
And I have said it before, the youth hunt is another mistake. Those does and cows aren't just coming off private land.
And thanks Ben, will do.
drahthaar
Active member
It always seems to me, the commission needs direct pressure, they don't listen to the bios anyway do they?
Lawnboy
Well-known member
I hear you there. It seems all the attention in region 3 is on the elk and wolves all the while they are giving out muley doe tags which are quick becoming the passenger pigeons of our day.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Until Montana residents decide to start paying a fair fuggin' price for the privilege of hunting deer and elk...b-tags for both deer and elk will continue to be used as a revenue source for the FWP.
Thats exactly what has...and is going on. There was no biological reason for cow tags to become an additional tag...it boiled down to money, I'm 100% convinced of it.
The MTFWP has got to raise revenue...and one of the only ways to do that is to sell permits. When elk tags are $20, deer tags $15, they have to sell a shitload of them to make any money.
Its a mess...cheapskates and $20 elk tags dont solve problems.
Thats exactly what has...and is going on. There was no biological reason for cow tags to become an additional tag...it boiled down to money, I'm 100% convinced of it.
The MTFWP has got to raise revenue...and one of the only ways to do that is to sell permits. When elk tags are $20, deer tags $15, they have to sell a shitload of them to make any money.
Its a mess...cheapskates and $20 elk tags dont solve problems.
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