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Wolves and Politics

BigHornRam

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Kinda backs up my thinking that the Repubs set Gov. Dave up. Interesting to see if Buzzboy backs the Rep. candidate next fall?

Governor defends wolf stance

By BRODIE FARQUHAR
Star-Tribune correspondent



RIVERTON -- In full-throated defense of Wyoming’s wolf management plan, Gov. Dave Freudenthal declared Thursday that wolf plans adopted by Idaho and Montana “aren’t worth a bucket of warm spit.”

The Democratic governor spoke here before Wyoming Farm Bureau members, a handful of state legislators and county commissioners at the start of a two-day wolf seminar: “Wolves, Wyoming’s Reality.” The seminar features panel discussions by landowners, outfitters, academics, state and federal biologists, lawyers and legislators. There was no representation from conservation groups that support wolves.

Freudenthal noted that the state is headed into the election season, featuring a lot of dancing around controversial issues. “Part of my argument is with the Casper Star-Tribune,” he said, adding that the editorial board of the state’s largest newspaper has said that Wyoming should drop its predator status for wolves -- a similar stance to that recently taken by Ray Hunkins, Republican candidate for governor.

Hunkins is scheduled to speak before the same group at 1 p.m. today.

Wyoming is in a standoff over wolves with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, which rejected the state’s management plan, largely because it would allow wolves to be shot on sight as “predators” outside Yellowstone National Park and adjacent lands. The federal agency has refused to downgrade Wyoming wolves from Endangered Species Act protection until Wyoming submits a plan that is acceptable to the Department of the Interior, which has already approved wolf management plans from Idaho and Montana.

The governor said Wyoming has already lost the national debate over whether wolves should even be called “predators.”

“I knew we were in trouble when I stepped inside a Cracker Barrel store,” the governor said. There, on display and on sale, was a variety of cute, stuffed animals -- including wolves, suitable to put in a baby’s crib.

“We’ve lost the larger psychological battle,” Freudenthal said, adding that basic, scientific facts are no longer relevant to people on the West and East coasts.

And the governor said he sees little reason to sit down and talk more with federal officials. He said he has done that, and he’s tired of lectures about why Wyoming needs to change its wolf management plan.

“All we hear is dissertations from them as to why we need to change. I’ve been through a multitude of those meetings,” including one where Interior Secretary Gale Norton was in his office, he said.

Freudenthal said he didn’t know if that will change if Idaho Gov. Dirk Kempthorne becomes Interior secretary.

“I won’t hang my hat on that thin reed,” Freudenthal said.

Ultimately, and probably in federal court, the governor said, he wants a hearing on the scientific merits of the state's position.

He said the state already has scientific approval for the plan, as 10 of 11 scientists selected by the Fish and Wildlife Service gave the Cowboy State a thumbs up on its wolf management plan. The governor said that scientific stamp of approval has been overridden by politics.

He noted that Paul Hoffman, the former Cody Country Chamber of Commerce executive who's now an Interior Department official, told Wyoming legislators that they could have a large "take" on wolves through hunting, but only within the context of calling them trophy game animals and issuing hunting licenses.

That just doesn’t make sense, Freudenthal said, because trophy animals are managed so there is a continual supply of the animals, and that isn’t what he or the Legislature wants with wolves.

He said that any hope of keeping wolf populations down, so as to minimize conflicts with livestock, are illusory. Wyoming needs additional tools and tactics, such as aerial gunning, to control wolves, he said.

Under a trophy animal approach, Wyoming couldn’t use aerial gunning, he said.

Freudenthal said the Interior position is political, not scientific.

He said he’d like the same flexibility in managing wolves as Wyoming has with managing air pollution under the federal Clear Air Act.

“I don’t like being in conflict with feds, but I don’t want to be governor when we just roll over," he said.
 
Wyoming's plan is the olny good plan between the three states as it stands right now.

Wolves will not be controlled by sport hunting only and aerial gunning will not be an option in the Big Game status that we have on them now.

If plans for Delisting is ever excepted the (Defenders of Wildlife)errr.. I mean USFWS it will be tied up in the court by all the Pro Wolf Groups till I'm too old to hunt anymore.
The only chance we have in managing any of these Wolves ever is for Wyoming to win their lawsuit against the feds.
Wyoming just needs to get their case before a Conservative anti Wolf Judge.
Wyoming needs to stay out of the 9th and 10th Circuit Courts.
 
Excaliber said:
Wolves will not be controlled by sport hunting only .

The only chance we have in managing any of these Wolves ever is for Wyoming to win their lawsuit against the feds.
Wyoming just needs to get their case before a Conservative anti Wolf Judge.
Wyoming needs to stay out of the 9th and 10th Circuit Courts.

Why will sport hunting not manage the species? Does sport hunting work to manage other species?

And which judges do you think allow the politics (Conservative) to allow them to make Decisions that do not follow the law?

Which circuit would you reccommend Wyoming file their lawsuit in?
 
Wolves are too smart and once they they realize they are being hunted they will become nocturnal and we'll never see them.

Without poisoning them and aerial shooting we will never be able to keep their numbers in check.
Their populations increase by at least 25-30% per year and there is very few pups that don't make it.

Let's look at Idaho for starters. We have 600-700 Wolves which is 600 more than we are supposed to have.

To try to eliminate 600 Wolves you would have to issue 1800 Wolf tags and I'd be willing to bet the Greeneies will never let that happen.
Our herds have 10 years left at best and if we have many Elk left to hunt then it will all be by contolled hunts and most likely on private land, land with cattle so the ranchers can kill the wolves and keep them at bay.

I like the way IDF$G says the Elk herds are stable but with Hunter Elk harvest of 18,000+ and Wolf numbers in the 700 plus range( their #'s if you want to believe them) and calf recruitment failing to build herds al0ong with our cow elk being older due to lack of recruitment, I don't buy it.

I'm sure this isn't the case in the Whole state but once the Wolves eat their way accross one unit and move to the next this will be the case.
One bad winter and it will be apparent what is happening.

I think Wolves will eat the Elk faster than they can reproduce once this happens.
Can you say " Preditor pit"?

Anywhere but the 9th or 10th circuits would be my choice for a lawsuit. The Greenies take their suits befroe their friendly judges why can't Wyoming?

Do you think the Feds really want to delist? Hell they can't even write a petition to get Gray Wolves reclassified. This is our Gov. getting their asses handed to them by a buch of greeneies.
 
Whoever said "ignorance is bliss" must have read threads like the ones above.

First of all. The "management plan that ain't werth a bucket of spit,says the wolf will be managed the same way we mange game animals now. It doesn't rule out the use of trapping.

Now if you remember, wolves were exterminated without the use of aircraft earily during the 1930's. Man only really hunted and trapped them for about a 10 year period in history. ( Bounty years) It only took that long to remove them.

No poison, no aerial hunting, just trapping and hunting.

All the political posturing by the Wyoming gov. wont mean squat, after the court desides the issue. The state will either comply or not.
 
Excaliber said:
Wolves are too smart and once they they realize they are being hunted they will become nocturnal and we'll never see them.
Don't we hunt other animals that are nocturnal, at least during hunting seasons? Where do animals go when it is daytime and they are nocturnal? Do they leave the forest, or do they just lay down and sleep somewhere? Have you ever hunted anything away from a road?


Excaliber said:
Their populations increase by at least 25-30% per year and there is very few pups that don't make it.
How many years does that happen? Hasn't, in fact, the populations of wolves in Yellowstone peaked and began decreasing the last few years?



Excaliber said:
To try to eliminate 600 Wolves you would have to issue 1800 Wolf tags and I'd be willing to bet the Greeneies will never let that happen.
Why would the "Greenies" (and what is a Greenie?) not accept 1800 wolf tags if the Management plan needed to reduce 600 wolves? Do you really think there are 600 excess wolves in Idaho? And, as hunters, is a 33% success rate (600/1800) seem like an acceptable experience? Do you have any clue what Elk success rate is in Idaho?



Excaliber said:
Our herds have 10 years left at best and if we have many Elk left to hunt then it will all be by contolled hunts and most likely on private land, land with cattle so the ranchers can kill the wolves and keep them at bay.
Where did you make up the 10 year apocolypse number?


Excaliber said:
I like the way IDF$G says the Elk herds are stable but with Hunter Elk harvest of 18,000+ and Wolf numbers in the 700 plus range( their #'s if you want to believe them) and calf recruitment failing to build herds al0ong with our cow elk being older due to lack of recruitment, I don't buy it.
Do you have any idea of how many of the 29 Elk management units are at targeted populations?



Excaliber said:
I'm sure this isn't the case in the Whole state but once the Wolves eat their way accross one unit and move to the next this will be the case.
One bad winter and it will be apparent what is happening.
What does the bad winter have to do with Wolves? Do you think Wolves make it snow? And what is a "bad winter", one with snow or one without snow?



Excaliber said:
Can you say " Preditor pit"?
Could you at least learn to spell it before you ask others to say it?



Excaliber said:
Anywhere but the 9th or 10th circuits would be my choice for a lawsuit. The Greenies take their suits befroe their friendly judges why can't Wyoming?
How are you suggesting Wyoming gets moved to another Circuit? Do you really think all the in-bred, six-toed, rednecks in Wyoming would like it if Wyoming was moved to New England? And do you really think that Federal Laws are interpreted differently in different parts of the USA? How could a Federal Law be different in another Circuit?
 
Hmmmm I thought that the majority of wolves that were killed off the first time were killed using poison? Am I wrong?
 
Not sure about the poison Bambi. I was under the same impression that poison was liberally used. Locate the den and it's not too hard to whipe out an entire pack even without poison. Bounty on a pup was the same as for an adult.....easy pickens.

So S. S., you do not think that the Wyoming DEMOCRAT Governor was set up by the Republicans? And do you really think the wolf huggers will allow trapping for wolves. Can we trap anywhere for bear or cougar now?

Craig,

Why should anyone rebut a guy that never answers any questions asked of him? Maybe you should give it a try?
 
BHR,
Do you really think Wolves are a big enough issue to influence election results? Why would anyone waste time "setting up" a governor?
 
How is this setting up the Gov? He's been on record since at least 2004 as being in favor of the WY plan and against the feds. I guess now in politics making your opponent state a position on something has now become a set-up?
 
JoseCuervo said:
"Don't we hunt other animals that are nocturnal, at least during hunting seasons? Where do animals go when it is daytime and they are nocturnal? Do they leave the forest, or do they just lay down and sleep somewhere? Have you ever hunted anything away from a road?"

Sure we hunt bears over bait the last couple hours of the day and spot and stalk can be successful at times. Have you ever tried to spot and stalk bears in their bedding areas? Just where do they sleep? If it's so easy why isn't it done?

Do you think it may have something to do with the fact that they bed in really thick areas that we have trouble getting into?


"How many years does that happen? Hasn't, in fact, the populations of wolves in Yellowstone peaked and began decreasing the last few years?"

By whose numbers? The Elk have done really well too haven't they. How many Wolves were introduced into the park 10 years ago and how many live in or near the park today? Do the math.



"Why would the "Greenies" (and what is a Greenie?) not accept 1800 wolf tags if the Management plan needed to reduce 600 wolves? Do you really think there are 600 excess wolves in Idaho? And, as hunters, is a 33% success rate (600/1800) seem like an acceptable experience? Do you have any clue what Elk success rate is in Idaho?"

First off all think about what you wrote I'm sure your smarter than that. The USFWS can't even get Wolves reclassified without a lawsuit. The Pro Wolfers won. 1800 tags may or may not be enough but the Defenders of Wildlife, United States Humane Society, Sierra Club and all the other Pro wolf groups( all Greenies) will never allow hunting without years of prolonged lawsuits.

Who knows if 1800 tags are sufficient to remove the desired number of Wolves. When was the last time anyone had a Wolf season so we can accurately estimate the number of tags needed to achieve a certain harvest figure?




"Where did you make up the 10 year apocolypse number?"

Let's look at Yellowstone and we can get a good idea of what happens when Wolves are involved, unless you think the Elk just dissapeared on their own.

Add in a couple rough winters, lack of Calf recruitment,Wolf numbers will increase and the herds will suffer. Not too hard to figure out.



"Do you have any idea of how many of the 29 Elk management units are at targeted populations?"

By whose #'s IDF&G? oh I guess you believe everything you hear like "the herds are stable" and " we are over objective" Believe what you want, it's your right.
The South East deer herds are really doing well too. The herds in this state are managed for hunting opportunity $$$$$$$$

"What does the bad winter have to do with Wolves? Do you think Wolves make it snow? And what is a "bad winter", one with snow or one without snow?"

I'll try to make this easy. Deep snow, Elk forced lower into open areas. Wolves congregate searching for easy prey.




"How are you suggesting Wyoming gets moved to another Circuit? Do you really think all the in-bred, six-toed, rednecks in Wyoming would like it if Wyoming was moved to New England? And do you really think that Federal Laws are interpreted differently in different parts of the USA? How could a Federal Law be different in another Circuit?
"

The Pro Wolfers filed their suits in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, the most overuled court district in the United States.
Did I say move the lawsuit to New England? You would think Wyoming could get their lawsuit before a judge who would be more inclined to rule in thier favor.

It sounds like you enjoy the Wolves being here ,good for you that's also your right. I'm sure they are not hurting wildlife populations at this time and even if they are we have way too many elk anyways right?

Wolves are OK they only kill the weak and the sick and the old and they don't sport kill. they only kill what they need to survive.

They are needed to balance the eco system and they make it healthier.

Believe what you want.
 
Bambistew said:
Hmmmm I thought that the majority of wolves that were killed off the first time were killed using poison? Am I wrong?

No your right. Wolves were poisoned , trapped , shot on sight, you name it they used it.
 
BHR

So S. S., you do not think that the Wyoming DEMOCRAT Governor was set up by the Republicans? And do you really think the wolf huggers will allow trapping for wolves. Can we trap anywhere for bear or cougar now?

I don't have an opionion on wether he was set up or not, that would take some doing. Again great conspiracies theory.

The fact is that in the management plan it allows, and clearily states that trapping could and would be used as a lethal means of harvest.

Also you ask a question that's irrelevant to the situation.The management is not up to the wolf huggers and they will have no more say in the trapping of wolves than any other citizen of this country. We trap now in most all states, and is reconized as an important means of management. If the states EIS is in place on each individual game animal then it's hard to take them to court.

We can't trap for bear or Mountain Lion now because their numbers are keep in check with traditional hunting methods. Although the state uses this method for relocating, colaring, and killing problem bears and cats all the time. By the way I'm only speaking of Montana because I'm not up on all the other states methods of legal harvest for thease animals.

Why should anyone rebut a guy that never answers any questions asked of him? Maybe you should give it a try?

I think I anwsered every question on the last debat we had quite well. Somthing was said about a Big Horn Sheep being slaughtered or somthing like that. So keep asking away. I will always be happy to educate you.
 
S. S.,

If you would follow the coversation a little more close you would have noticed my question was directed towards Craig Miller. Didn't you get schooled on the Wyoming management plan in the last debate S. S.? And the reason that there is no trapping season on bear and cougar is because they are managed as a big game animal, not a predator. So how is Montana planning on managing the wolf?

As for my consperacy theory. Wyoming residents asked for a tough wolf management plan. Gov. Dave responded with one. The feds gave Wyoming the thumbs up on their plan all the way till the last minute and then rolled on them. Now Gov Dave can't back down in one of the reddest of red states or he'ld look like a spineless wimp to his constituants. Who turned down Wyomings plan? Answer is the oil hungry Bush Admin. Say isn't Kempthorn one of those "extraction" guy's? So how do we get a moderate Wyoming oil and gas proponent like Freudenthal out of the way and replace him with one that's more in line with the Bush Administration? Answer run a candidate against him that's not "grandstanding" on the wolf issue. Republican candidate gets elected, works with Dirk to get the plan accepted, problem solved.

So who is Buzz going to vote for next fall? Freudenthal or the Big Oil Republican candidate? Or will he even vote (remember no vote for Freudenthal is 1/2 a vote for Big Oil and Gas)?
 
Q. What does the recommended Montana's wolf conservation and management plan seek to establish?

A. The recommended plan, which is an updated version of the Montana Wolf Management Advisory Council recommendations, would create a wolf conservation and management program similar to that for black bears and mountain lions. It would be based on numbers, distribution and public acceptance. Wolf management techniques, and the methods used to resolve conflicts, would be based on a benchmark of 15 breeding pairs in Montana. The plan considers the spectrum of management activities-from simple harassment techniques to chase wolves away, to lethal control measures, like offering kill permits to landowners and regulated hunting or trapping. The aim is to sustain the wolf population, Montana's deer and elk populations, and to help resolve wolf-human and wolf-livestock conflicts.

BHR You asked
So how is Montana planning on managing the wolf?

I answered you now back to class.
 
BHR have you not grown at least a little tired of being owned on this subject
 
A. The recommended plan, which is an updated version of the Montana Wolf Management Advisory Council recommendations, would create a wolf conservation and management program similar to that for black bears and mountain lions. It would be based on numbers, distribution and public acceptance. Wolf management techniques, and the methods used to resolve conflicts, would be based on a benchmark of 15 breeding pairs in Montana. The plan considers the spectrum of management activities-from simple harassment techniques to chase wolves away, to lethal control measures, like offering kill permits to landowners and regulated hunting or trapping. The aim is to sustain the wolf population, Montana's deer and elk populations, and to help resolve wolf-human and wolf-livestock conflicts.

Key words are in bold for you S. S.. "Public acceptance" is the key phrase. Looks to me like Montana plans to allow comments from everyone, not just Montana residents. If that's the case, we don't stand a chance of having a hunt or trapping SEASON on wolves in Montana.

"BHR have you not grown at least a little tired of being owned on this subject"

No. When guys like Buzz H, 280, Ten Beers, S. S., Jose, Ithaca 37, ect, ect disagree with me it only adds to my convictions!
 
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