Who And What Was George Custer?

[shrapnel]

Lots of authors (and a few direct witnesses) disagree with your conclusions - it doesn't make them 100% right or wrong, as you are neither 100% right nor wrong. Frankly, the vigorous nature of your defense is enough to cause folks to discount them - even in events that happened this century direct witnesses disagree. The history of Custer is messy - there is no guaranteed answer - to suggest otherwise 150 years later with secondary and tertiary sources is in its own way ignorant - and I do agree that is tough to argue with.

Agreed. That is the genesis of this discussion. I have made a case for Custer not being the fool many made him out to be and many will agree, many won’t. You don’t agree, that is your prerogative, it doesn’t make you wrong.

Comments like Schmalts’ do show lack of knowledge and a bias that I was guilty of many years ago until I started reading and studying the history of Custer and the Little Bighorn Battle. I was surprised that Montana named a forest, county and a city after a loser like Custer, until I found out more about him, his life and accomplishments.

I also understand why Phil Sheridan put so much confidence in Custer and why I wouldn’t want to serve under him. The dynamics of Custer and his life are complicated and diverse. Claims of his stupidity though, are ignorant and reinforcing those claims border on stupidity.

I will admit I am more of a Custer supporter than detractor, but I will also admit he was not perfect, flawless or incapable of mistakes. Most negative comments come from people that only know of his demise in 1876 and nothing of his military accomplishments throughout the Civil War. He did do other things after the Civil War that have historical significance and few are aware of those things including the expedition into the Black Hills in 1874 or the Yellowstone expedition in 1873.

Learning about these other aspects of his life and exploits will give you a better view of the individual and much of that has become the baseline by which I judge Custer.

 

[NR_Hunter]

Sure seems like he had a case of what Dan Carlin would call “victory disease”. Too many W’s and got over confident, leading to his sh!t getting pushed in.

 

[shrapnel]

He almost got massacred at the Washita and rushed into the little bighorn without proper scouting(also ignored the advice of his Crow scouts). I think arrogance more then stupidity was his problem or he just genuinely had a death wish. He allowed his fear of the Indians escaping to cloud his judgment and rushed in. Compared to men like Miles and Crook he dosen't hold up.

No doubt, Custer had arrogance and bravado. There is a lot that people don’t know about why Custer moved on toward the Little Bighorn sooner than he planned and that wasn’t arrogance. At the point he decided to head to the Little Bighorn, he knew he had been discovered by the Indians and he didn’t want them breaking camp and running.

In January of 1876, the United States told all Indians that were not on reservations that they would be considered “hostile” and dealt with accordingly. Most of the Western United States at that time was open frontier and to control Indian activities was not easy.

You can make a case that the Indians didn’t want to be controlled and I would agree with those Indians, that had I been one, I wouldn’t want to be confined to any reservation. Regardless, that was the edict from the federal government and Custer was only a player, not and engineer of policy.

As to his movements from the time he left the Far West, he had orders from General Terry and they gave him much latitude in his ability to make changes as he saw what and who he encountered.

------------------------------------------------

Headquarters of the Department of Dakota (In the Field)
Camp at Mouth of Rosebud River, Montana Territory June 22nd, 1876

Lieutenant-Colonel Custer,
7th Calvary

Colonel: The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that, as soon as your regiment can be made ready for the march, you will proceed up the Rosebud in pursuit of the Indians whose trail was discovered by Major Reno a few days since. It is, impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and were it not impossible to do so the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy. He will, however, indicate to you his own views of what your action should be, and he desires that you should conform to them unless you shall see sufficient reason for departing from them. He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn toward the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank.

The column of Colonel Gibbon is now in motion for the mouth of the Big Horn. As soon as it reaches that point will cross the Yellowstone and move up at least as far as the forks of the Big and Little Horns. Of course its future movements must be controlled by circumstances as they arise, but it is hoped that the Indians, if upon the Little Horn, may be so nearly inclosed by the two columns that their escape will be impossible. The Department Commander desires that on your way up the Rosebud you should thoroughly examine the upper part of Tullock's Creek, and that you should endeavor to send a scout through to Colonel Gibbon's command.

The supply-steamer will be pushed up the Big Horn as far as the forks of the river is found to be navigable for that distance, and the Department Commander, who will accompany the column of Colonel Gibbon, desires you to report to him there not later than the expiration of the time for which your troops are rationed, unless in the mean time you receive further orders.

Very respectfully, Your obedient servant,
E. W. Smith, Captain, 18th Infantry A. A. J. G.

Even General Terry was aware of who and what Custer was as his orders show, yet many people condemn Custer, saying he disobeyed orders and you can see from Terry’s orders, Custer was given total control of his actions in the field as he saw changing conditions.

After realizing he had been discovered by the Indians, Custer did move toward the village ahead of time and his deployment of Benteen to the southwest was one of tactical observation as to whether or not the Indians were going to scatter.

Much more happened leading up to the battle, and comments of stupidity are not from anyone familiar with the history of that battle.

 

[shrapnel]

Compared to men like Miles and Crook he dosen't hold up.

Again I will post the observation of Nelson Miles where you place value:

"The more I see of movements here the more admiration I have for Custer," Colonel Nelson Miles wrote from the field to his wife several months after the Battle of the Little Big horn," and I am satisfied his like will not be found very soon again."

As far as a Crook was concerned, no one seems to find it curious as to why he was trounced by a smaller band of Indians a week previous to the Little Bighorn with almost 1000 men, expending over 25,000 round of ammunition and hardly hitting any of them, then returning to Wyoming and going fishing. Crook was not the hero he is given credit for. His Indian scouts saved his ass that day.

 

[WildWill]

As far as a Crook was concerned, no one seems to find it curious as to why he was trounced by a smaller band of Indians a week previous to the Little Bighorn with almost 1000 men, expending over 25,000 round of ammunition and hardly hitting any of them, then returning to Wyoming and going fishing. Crook was not the hero he is given credit for. His Indian scouts saved his ass that day.

We will just have to disagree about Crook. Perhaps if Custer had listened to his scouts they'd have saved his ass. Although agree the Rosebud was not his finest hour.

Also got to ad if my choices are fish in Wyoming or possibly loose my top knot that's a no brainer.

 

[shrapnel]

We will just have to disagree about Crook. Perhaps if Custer had listened to his scouts they'd have saved his ass. Although agree the Rosebud was not his finest hour.

Also got a ad if my choices are fish in Wyoming or possibly loose my top knot that's a no brainer.

You might want to read about why McClellan was relieved of his command during the Civil War.

 

[squirrel]

People are fascinated by total loss, especially when the "side' wins overall. Americans certainly are with the Alamo and Little Bighorn. Both are studied and second guessed endlessly. The modern "study" seems weird to me, looking for evil in dead men, and voicing disapproval of same, as if it matters if you "like" Custer. I'm pretty sure his FB account got torn down. Guess it's easier than looking in the mirror with equal critique.

Anyone out there have any foreign total losses to read up on besides the "300"?? I liked that one too.

 

[noharleyyet]

The Crusades comes to mind.

 

[squirrel]

You might want to read about why McClellan was relieved of his command during the Civil War.

Funny you bring that up... Mcclellan was Custer, but with no testicles. All the same flaws though. Guess that's why he got to be an "old soldier".

 

[WildWill]

You might want to read about why McClellan was relieved of his command during the Civil War.

I'm familiar he definitely needed a little of what Custer had and Custer needed a lot less. In fairness to McClellan at least he never completely destroyed the combat effectiveness of his command while getting himself killed.

 

[squirrel]

The Crusades comes to mind.

Ahh yes... nothing like a little religious fervour to result in total death and destruction!! Any particular book Harley? I'm building fence and audio books make the day more educational, after coffee and huntalk of course...

 

[shrapnel]

I'm familiar he definitely needed a little of what Custer had and Custer needed a lot less. In fairness to McClellan at least he never completely destroyed the combat effectiveness of his command while getting himself killed.

They won't get killed if they are in New York and the fight is in Virginia.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

People are fascinated by total loss, especially when the "side' wins overall. Americans certainly are with the Alamo and Little Bighorn. Both are studied and second guessed endlessly. The modern "study" seems weird to me, looking for evil in dead men, and voicing disapproval of same, as if it matters if you "like" Custer. I'm pretty sure his FB account got torn down. Guess it's easier than looking in the mirror with equal critique.

Anyone out there have any foreign total losses to read up on besides the "300"?? I liked that one too.

Check out how the British's 1st Afghan Campaign ended in their retreat from Kabul towards the Khyber Pass in January 1842. Afghans do not mess around....

 

[BirdManMike]

People are fascinated by total loss, especially when the "side' wins overall. Americans certainly are with the Alamo and Little Bighorn. Both are studied and second guessed endlessly. The modern "study" seems weird to me, looking for evil in dead men, and voicing disapproval of same, as if it matters if you "like" Custer. I'm pretty sure his FB account got torn down. Guess it's easier than looking in the mirror with equal critique.

Anyone out there have any foreign total losses to read up on besides the "300"?? I liked that one too.

Stalingrad. There are some great first hand accounts and books on it.

The defeat of Germany is interesting to me and I like reading first hand accounts, especailly.

This is one I just got thru, if youre into WW2 stuff:

Blood Red Snow: The Memoirs of a German Soldier on the Eastern Front: Koschorrek, Gunter: 0752748321984: Amazon.com: Books

Blood Red Snow: The Memoirs of a German Soldier on the Eastern Front [Koschorrek, Gunter] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Blood Red Snow: The Memoirs of a German Soldier on the Eastern Front

www.amazon.com

Note: It was translated to English by a Brit who adds British slang like 'bloke', etc. which is kindve offputting at first. Also, the translator refers to PPSh-41s/PPS-43s as 'Kalashnikovs' which might trigger some gun nut weirdos.

There is an audio book on Youtube, also:

 

[squirrel]

They won't get killed if they are in New York and the fight is in Virginia.

Probably just the strong coffee so don't be too offended Shrapnel... but you say you wouldn't have ridden with Custer, who had a medium size HERD of horses killed from underneath him as he rode them in battle... and I cant help but laugh at your "twisted an ankle on a paved wheel chair path" pic. I'm not sure he would have asked you to sign up for the 7th Cav! Gotta be the coffee, otherwise it would be insensitive, sorry, hope you heal up ok.

 

[squirrel]

Check out how the British's 1st Afghan Campaign ended in their retreat from Kabul towards the Khyber Pass in January 1842. Afghans do not mess around....

Excellent I have read some references to those fights in other books, but never dug further into it. I think there is a poem about saving the last bullet that sprung from the theater.

 

[Schaaf]

Can you guess who Son-of-the-morning-star is?

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Excellent I have read some references to those fights in other books, but never dug further into it. I think there is a poem about saving the last bullet that sprung from the theater.

You want to learn about some harsh brutality; Afghanistan routinely makes the Indian Wars look like a playground shoving match.....

This is a pretty good summary of the last two 2-2.5 centuries of AFG:
https://www.amazon.com/Games-without-Rules-Often-Interrupted-Afghanistan/dp/1610393198

"The Young British Soldier" Rudyard Kipling: http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_youngbrit.htm

 

[shrapnel]

Probably just the strong coffee so don't be too offended Shrapnel... but you say you wouldn't have ridden with Custer, who had a medium size HERD of horses killed from underneath him as he rode them in battle... and I cant help but laugh at your "twisted an ankle on a paved wheel chair path" pic. I'm not sure he would have asked you to sign up for the 7th Cav! Gotta be the coffee, otherwise it would be insensitive, sorry, hope you heal up ok.

Life as a trooper in the west was nothing glamorous. Nelson Miles attacked the Indians again on the Tongue River in Montana territory in January 1877. This was 30 below zero and these troopers were infantry. No I wouldn’t want to be there...

 

[wytex]

Too soon? . . .

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Sweet cheese? No, just no!