WARNING: Student Load Forgiveness is Very Unlikely to Pay for Your Next Elk Tag

[BuzzH]

I think these are a step in the right direction:

Alaska governor drops college degree requirement for most state jobs to fight worker shortage

Story at a glance Alaska Gov. Mike Dunleavy (R) is scrapping the state’s four-year college degree requirement for most state jobs. Dunleavy issued the order to address Alaska’s ongoing workf…

thehill.com

Pennsylvania governor removes college degree requirement for most state jobs on first full day in office

Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro signed an executive order on his first full day in office to remove college degree requirements for 92% of state jobs.

www.foxbusiness.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/03/20/maryland-state-jobs-degree-hogan/

I think many businesses are rethinking at least some of their degree requirements and its about time!

Lots of very capable and smart people that never went to college that are better qualified for positions than someone with no experience and a degree...I see it all the time.

Case in point, my Grandmother, who had a high school diploma, Managed a clothing store in Missoula Montana that made more money than the parent store in Seattle, Washington (ran by a college grad). She was a smart cookie. Not only managed the store, but also did all the accounting, payroll, ordering, hiring, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Rzrbck918]

How the hell y’all got 700 racks on deck for school and I’m skip troweling my bathroom ceiling.

Sacrifices of a mountain athlete brother.

 

[SAJ-99]

I think these are a step in the right direction:

Alaska governor drops college degree requirement for most state jobs to fight worker shortage

Story at a glance Alaska Gov. Mike Dunleavy (R) is scrapping the state’s four-year college degree requirement for most state jobs. Dunleavy issued the order to address Alaska’s ongoing workf…

thehill.com

Pennsylvania governor removes college degree requirement for most state jobs on first full day in office

Pennsylvania Gov. Josh Shapiro signed an executive order on his first full day in office to remove college degree requirements for 92% of state jobs.

www.foxbusiness.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/03/20/maryland-state-jobs-degree-hogan/

It will be interesting to watch. 92% seems high, but a lot of those state jobs are just customer service or clerical, so it probably won't have much of an impact. That said, I can easily envision this going bad in a hurry for some jobs. I still believe that rarely does less experience and training result in better outcomes.

 

[RobertD]

I think folks would be surprised if they knew how many people with archaic Scandinavian poetry degrees go get jobs in the business world and perform well.

I've got journalism and rhet comp degrees and I've turned them into a solid marketing job. My immediate supervisor has degrees in public administration. CEO has the most liberal art degree of all time: comparative literature.

People focus on the content of knowledge instead of the means of acquiring it, which is what college really teaches you (if it does its job).

I told my students, back when I was a TA, that it mattered less what they chose for a major and more that they actively thought about skills and habits they could build pursuing that major, and how to market those skills and themselves to potential employers in the future.

(My one disclaimer is that there probably are some degrees that are too "political" and may hurt your marketability because of how people might react to them. Gender studies etc...)

 

[noharleyyet]

I think folks would be surprised if they knew how many people with archaic Scandinavian poetry degrees go get jobs in the business world and perform well.

I've got journalism and rhet comp degrees and I've turned them into a solid marketing job. My immediate supervisor has degrees in public administration. CEO has the most liberal art degree of all time: comparative literature.

People focus on the content of knowledge instead of the means of acquiring it, which is what college really teaches you (if it does its job).

I told my students, back when I was a TA, that it mattered less what they chose for a major and more that they actively thought about skills and habits they could build pursuing that major, and how to market those skills and themselves to potential employers in the future.

(My one disclaimer is that there probably are some degrees that are too "political" and may hurt your marketability because of how people might react to them. Gender studies etc...)

Layman translation...once you figger out knowin' what you don't know, hopefully you should have the ability to figger out what you need to know so's you can earn the means to buy stuff you wanna buy.

 

[TOGIE]

robertd's comment did make me think about the contrast with engineering a little. you may be able to get a degree in the arts and go be a business analyst, marketer, or successful salesman, but you can't be an engineer. or like me, you can be a geologist with a speciality in hydrology and groundwater, and not be legally allowed to be an engineer, even though half my coursework was identical to many civil engineers and probably a quarter of my coursework was taken in the civil engineering department.

lot's of jobs, especially government jobs, require you to obtain or have PE license, which basically requires an engineering degree, or, are rather difficult to obtain without one. a good chunk of my job descriptions across my several different jobs for the last 8 years or so have included large portions of work and job descriptions that are identical to engineers and PEs but i'm not a PE. I just had to have my work signed by a PE who told me what i was supposed to do. or i would work on water rights analyses that would have to be signed off on by a PE and in water court it would be the PEs that testify when i did the work.

not getting an engineering degree can exclude you from many salaries and jobs. though, i'm managing to find pretty decent success on my track without one anyway.

i think my overall point is how perturbed i am that many jobs require PEs that, IMO, don't actually require PEs. PEs in the water resources world are somewhat unnecessary and moot to the point of being an expert in many technical water matters, IMO.

dams, structures, roads, etc, different story. PE licensing is obviously very good and necessary.

the other point being, engineering degrees for engineering are obviously very important. don't hope to become an engineer after getting an undergrad in sociology, or biology even. simply doesn't work unless you plan to go back for a masters in engineering and double up on some prerequisite coursework along the way.

other hard sciences you can absolutely play engineer and an engineer by title, but you may never get the pay and prestige that a PE gets without lots of extra curricular work or time to get there.

 

[noharleyyet]

robertd's comment did make me think about the contrast with engineering a little. you may be able to get a degree in the arts and go be a business analyst, marketer, or successful salesman, but you can't be an engineer. or like me, you can be a geologist with a speciality in hydrology and groundwater, and not be legally allowed to be an engineer, even though half my coursework was identical to many civil engineers and probably a quarter of my coursework was taken in the civil engineering department.

lot's of jobs, especially government jobs, require you to obtain or have PE license. a good chunk of my job descriptions across my several different jobs for the last 8 years or so have included large portions of work and job descriptions that are identical to engineers and PEs but i'm not a PE. I just had to have my work signed by a PE who told me what i was supposed to do. or i would work on water rights analyses that would have to be signed off on by a PE and in water court it would be the PEs that testify when i did the work.

not getting an engineering degree can exclude you from many salaries and jobs. though, i'm managing to find pretty decent success on my track without one anyway.

i think my overall point is how perturbed i am that many jobs require PEs that, IMO, don't actually require PEs. PEs in the water resources world are somewhat unnecessary and moot to the point of being an expert in many technical water matters, IMO.

dams, structures, roads, etc, different story. PE licensing is obviously very good and necessary.

the other point being, engineering degrees for engineering are obviously very important. don't hope to become an engineer after getting an undergrad in sociology, or biology even. simply doesn't work unless you plan to go back for a masters in engineering and double up on some prerequisite coursework along the way.

other hard sciences you can absolutely play engineer and an engineer by title, but you may never get the pay and prestige that a PE gets without lots of extra curricular work or time to get there.

Engineers and Architects are brilliant...they know how to offload design liability to dumbass structural stud subcontractors whom they require to pay other engineers to engineer steel stud framing docs for their signed and stamped design, specifications, and drawing documents.

 

[sclancy27]

robertd's comment did make me think about the contrast with engineering a little. you may be able to get a degree in the arts and go be a business analyst, marketer, or successful salesman, but you can't be an engineer. or like me, you can be a geologist with a speciality in hydrology and groundwater, and not be legally allowed to be an engineer, even though half my coursework was identical to many civil engineers and probably a quarter of my coursework was taken in the civil engineering department.

lot's of jobs, especially government jobs, require you to obtain or have PE license. a good chunk of my job descriptions across my several different jobs for the last 8 years or so have included large portions of work and job descriptions that are identical to engineers and PEs but i'm not a PE. I just had to have my work signed by a PE who told me what i was supposed to do. or i would work on water rights analyses that would have to be signed off on by a PE and in water court it would be the PEs that testify when i did the work.

not getting an engineering degree can exclude you from many salaries and jobs. though, i'm managing to find pretty decent success on my track without one anyway.

i think my overall point is how perturbed i am that many jobs require PEs that, IMO, don't actually require PEs. PEs in the water resources world are somewhat unnecessary and moot to the point of being an expert in many technical water matters, IMO.

dams, structures, roads, etc, different story. PE licensing is obviously very good and necessary.

the other point being, engineering degrees for engineering are obviously very important. don't hope to become an engineer after getting an undergrad in sociology, or biology even. simply doesn't work unless you plan to go back for a masters in engineering and double up on some prerequisite coursework along the way.

other hard sciences you can absolutely play engineer and an engineer by title, but you may never get the pay and prestige that a PE gets without lots of extra curricular work or time to get there.

I think the state you work in makes the PE title more (or less important). Some states require almost everything to be signed by a PE, some require only those projects associated with public works (I believe OR is that way).

Alot of gov jobs you don't need a PE, only to have passed the FE and graduated from an Accredited program. Some agencies require a PE at a certain GS level, for example BOR (Bureau of Reclamation) requires a PE to reach GS 12. Land management agencies and the NRCS do not require PE's unless you are the top level in the state.

I am someone that you describe, I have an ecology degree, then 8 years later went back and got an engineering degree, tho I chose another Bachelor's instead of a Master's due to the decreased time it took (2.5 yrs vs 4 yrs) and the limited difference in pay afterwards. In MT, in order to really do anything in the private sector, you need a PE. MT requires PE sig's on basically everything it seems. But if I stayed in gov, I likely wouldn't need it unless I wanted to make big $$$.

School was significantly more technically difficult than my job, but school is meant to weed out the dummies, much like pre-med and med school, rather than be an accurate approximation of the skills needed to complete the work of the profession.

Humanities/English/liberal arts etc. are classes meant to give analytical types "soft skills" and I believe they have they're place as part of college, but to give whole degrees in them seems foolish from a career and productivity perspective. I think our world would be a better place if everyone was forced to take more math and science and less "humanities".....

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think folks would be surprised if they knew how many people with archaic Scandinavian poetry degrees go get jobs in the business world and perform well.

I've got journalism and rhet comp degrees and I've turned them into a solid marketing job. My immediate supervisor has degrees in public administration. CEO has the most liberal art degree of all time: comparative literature.

I definitely agree that not all jobs require specialized degrees, but then I do find myself asking, “absent artificial and unnecessary college degree requirements as an entry barrier, wouldn’t a person have gained just as many “soft skills” working a $35k a year job for 4 yrs out of high school while they grew up and learned how to be an adult and productive employee? That puts them net +$350,000 (+ income, - Ed costs) in this discussion. I have taken dozens of lib arts classes and some I enjoyed a lot, but none taught me more useful skills than being an asst. manager at a mom and pop restaurant did.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Okay, to summarize this thread:

Everyone agrees college can be way to expensive.
Some feel there are still affordable college educations.
Some value a liberal arts education.
Some do not value a liberal arts education
Some do not value any college education
Everyone has their own view of how to pay for their kids education.
Some pay all.
Some pay some.
Some pay none.

Whew, that was a lot of hard work over 20 pages, but I think we nailed it! Problem solved. Next...

You missed "No one reads the promissory notes or understands the repayment plans so 95% of the thread is just bloviating."

 

[sclancy27]

You missed "No one reads the promissory notes or understands the repayment plans so 95% of the thread is just bloviating."

Maybe as a function of federal loan funding we should require all colleges to have an online introductory course that must be completed before school starts as freshman that goes through the loan process in detail. I had to attend a class before I graduated that basically said "you should repay your loans", that was after the damage was done.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

 

[VikingsGuy]

Maybe as a function of federal loan funding we should require all colleges to have an online introductory course that must be completed before school starts as freshman that goes through the loan process in detail. I had to attend a class before I graduated that basically said "you should repay your loans", that was after the damage was done.

It used to be a required by fed govt for all schools offering fed backed loans. Seems dumb if that went away.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Maybe as a function of federal loan funding we should require all colleges to have an online introductory course that must be completed before school starts as freshman that goes through the loan process in detail. I had to attend a class before I graduated that basically said "you should repay your loans", that was after the damage was done.

Kinda irrelevant as there really isn't another alternative. I mean sure you might dissuade a lot of kids from going to college, and if that is the goal sure it might work.

I'm more commenting on the national debate people love knee jerk, your team my team distillations of an issue and this is no different.

 

[sclancy27]

It used to be a required by fed govt for all schools offering fed backed loans. Seems dumb if that went away.

I think that is what I took, but it was at the end of school, strange timing there.....We had to take alcohol and sexual harassment classes before school started, but I don't remember taking a loan class.

Kinda irrelevant as there really isn't another alternative. I mean sure you might dissuade a lot of kids from going to college, and if that is the goal sure it might work.

I'm more commenting on the national debate people love knee jerk, your team my team distillations of an issue and this is no different.

I think there are some people that should be dissuaded from going to college. There are a ton of kids that drop out after a year, maybe two that never go back. They would be better served being scared off at the beginning, IMO.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think that is what I took, but it was at the end of school, strange timing there.....We had to take alcohol and sexual harassment classes before school started, but I don't remember taking a loan class.

I think there are some people that should be dissuaded from going to college. There are a ton of kids that drop out after a year, maybe two that never go back. They would be better served being scared off at the beginning, IMO.

About 2/3rds of students complete a 4 degree in less than 6 yrs from the school they first enroll in. Not sure how many of the 1/3rd complete at a different school or years later vs those who never do.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I think that is what I took, but it was at the end of school, strange timing there.....We had to take alcohol and sexual harassment classes before school started, but I don't remember taking a loan class.

I think there are some people that should be dissuaded from going to college. There are a ton of kids that drop out after a year, maybe two that never go back. They would be better served being scared off at the beginning, IMO.

From a couple posts back...

250k paying for school v. giving your kid 250 in a trust fund

Assumption is 6% interest using the old IBR plan on 25 years starting salary 55k with your investments making 9% in the market.

On the trust side your kid would get a $2500 tax deduction for 10 years so $25,000 total so maybe ~$8000 in savings.
On the paying for school side that money they are saving would likely be in a 401k or 403B, if they went traditional then they would reduce their taxable income by $63,648 over the course of that time, add to that any potential employer match. If they were smart they wouldn't be letting uncle sam hold their refund and could then pump this savings back into their retirement... I think you could easily see that bumping your account balance to ~140k -150K in that scenario, and it's in a tax advantaged account rather than a straight brokerage.


Not to mention without the $250k over your head you are more likely to take risks which lead to a higher salary and are better able to take on good debt like buying your first home.



IMHO after about age 22 trusts are dumb. You either raised someone with good spending habits or you didn't an extra decade doesn't make one that much less of a dumbass and at least if you pay for college you know your money went to an asset that they will have forever.

 

[sclancy27]

About 2/3rds of students complete a 4 degree in less than 6 yrs from the school they first enroll in. Not sure how many of the 1/3rd complete at a different school or years later vs those who never do.

Yea, I would have to dig to see how many start and never finish, 1/3 still seems high. Even, 10-15% is a lot of people.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Student loans: your ticket to delaying getting married, buying a house, and having kids, by 10 years.

 

[Jamen]

Yea, I would have to dig to see how many start and never finish, 1/3 still seems high. Even, 10-15% is a lot of people.

When i was going to NDSU at the time the graduation rate was 29% is what we were told. That was just for that school that doesnt take into all the people who started there and finished elsewhere.