WARNING: Student Load Forgiveness is Very Unlikely to Pay for Your Next Elk Tag

[longbow51]

When a business is stressed, they cut unproductive product lines and unproductive employees.

Universities seem to have a hard time doing that, though, re the art history major who owes $250K and there are 3 jobs paying $50K/year (and no, I don't know how many jobs there are, nor what they pay, but you get my drift). Or teachers with similar debt.

And I'm a bit torn by that, as I feel students should be well-grounded in the art, history, literature, and philosophy of Western Civilization and others to a lessor extent. OTOH, colleges aren't doing great at teaching these anyway; my daughter had several HS AP courses more rigorous in World and US History than her private college.

So, teach STEM with greater rigor, with some required courses on the aforementioned topics, to prepare students for jobs which actually exist.

And let schools compete on how well their students perform on things like Fundamentals of Engineering Exams, MCATs, LSATs, etc. Tenure has to go for this to work, too. No one else gets to underperform and keep a job (OK, I know, but let's not derail).

With rare exceptions, college is otherwise a waste of money.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I thought about making this point earlier. Where I graduated from is making about 500 mil a year return. They could cover about 1/4 of the in state tuition with 3% of their average returns. I could probably cut another 1/4 out of the tuition costs by eliminating the non essential courses. I think purdue recently streamlined their 4 year degree program and has had a tuition freeze for years.

But it is not about the students, never has been. It is about administrators' ego, power, and control over the only unregulated and nearly fully subsidized part of our economy.

 

[Marshian]

I love that quote from Good Will Hunting-
“You dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a f----n' education you coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library”. College should be investment in a career and not simply an experience.

 

[VikingsGuy]

When a business is stressed, they cut unproductive product lines and unproductive employees.

Universities seem to have a hard time doing that, though, re the art history major who owes $250K and there are 3 jobs paying $50K/year (and no, I don't know how many jobs there are, nor what they pay, but you get my drift). Or teachers with similar debt.

And I'm a bit torn by that, as I feel students should be well-grounded in the art, history, literature, and philosophy of Western Civilization and others to a lessor extent. OTOH, colleges aren't doing great at teaching these anyway; my daughter had several HS AP courses more rigorous in World and US History than her private college.

So, teach STEM with greater rigor, with some required courses on the aforementioned topics, to prepare students for jobs which actually exist.

And let schools compete on how well their students perform on things like Fundamentals of Engineering Exams, MCATs, LSATs, etc. Tenure has to go for this to work, too. No one else gets to underperform and keep a job (OK, I know, but let's not derail).

With rare exceptions, college is otherwise a waste of money.

I absolutely support a well rounded education. Engineers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, etc, etc, etc should have to take a big part of their coursework in the liberal arts. But other than a very very small number of future liberal arts replacement faculty, there is no societal need for libarts to be large majors.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I love that quote from Good Will Hunting-
“You dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a f----n' education you coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library”. College should be investment in a career and not simply an experience.

I mean in that scene the other guy is actually correct, in real life intelligence and aptitude mean little. Connections and the ability to navigate/ exploit your social network are as important as anything. Going to Harvard “vets” you for all future employers and gives you a social circle with access to money and power.

Even if you just party your way through school at an Ivy you are likely to far and away exceed the earnings of someone who worked their butt off at a state school… see every VP of Goldman. I think you can make a good argument that playing lacrosse is a better use of your time at a NESCAC or Ivy than being a biochem major, based on ROR for your time.

 

[Buffs35]

Why are there not congressional hearings televised daily by the major networks on higher ed overselling like there was for S&L debacle or sub-prime debacle? Why does GOP want to give bankers a break and Dems give higher ed a break and the average schlep just takes it? And why does traditional press point out one and overlook the other?

Simple. The Dems love shifting money to higher ed which inflates professor and administrator salaries, and ensures their base can influence impressionable minds while in attendance. Reps love it because there are newly minted workers every year that are saddled with debt and must apply for any number of thankless corporate positions. Very similar to how chamber of commerce republicans love open borders, drives down the costs of unskilled labor.

Circle of life. Neither side has any incentive to change a system which works perfectly for their important constituents.

 

[buckbull]

and art history majors?

Well I'm a software architect so have always encouraged my kids to go into the STEM fields. IMO, that is the most bang for your buck. For example, a computer science degree doesn't require a masters or doctorate to make good money. My son is going the Chemical Engineering route, my daughter is going the Marketing route. I would prefer my daughter go with a STEM course of study but I also know my daughter and Marketing is something she would be good at. Not everyone is cut out to be an engineer or lawyer or doctor. I would not be helping my kids financially for a art history major.

I assume someone with a art history major would work in a gallery or museum. There is a demand for these folks but the problem is the supply is so much greater and the pay is probably horrible.

I always encourage young folks to look at the Bureau of Labor Statistics and search for jobs they may be interested in. The site provides pay ranges, number of vacancies, and projected growth trends. Simply don't pick something that has declining demand, low pay, and zero vacancies. The culture in this country is "pick a career that you will enjoy". The fact is, kids need to pick careers that gives them financial freedom to do what they want. I always tell my kids, "money may not buy happiness but I've never met a happy poor person".

 

[Beignet]

I mean in that scene the other guy is actually correct, in real life intelligence and aptitude mean little. Connections and the ability to navigate/ exploit your social network are as important as anything. Going to Harvard “vets” you for all future employers and gives you a social circle with access to money and power.

Even if you just party your way through school at an Ivy you are likely to far and away exceed the earnings of someone who worked their butt off at a state school… see every VP of Goldman. I think you can make a good argument that playing lacrosse is a better use of your time at a NESCAC or Ivy than being a biochem major, based on ROR for your time.

This is quite true in my own anecdotal experience. I attended graduate school with plenty of dumb dumbs that were Ivy legacy admits. They all had a strong network in DC to lean into and got great jobs quickly after graduation. I'm thinking of three in particular that played sports as undergrads got right into fairly elite levels of the industry despite their lack of any other relevant experience. I had to claw my way into interviews with my lowly CUNY undergrad degree despite my excellent grades.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I mean in that scene the other guy is actually correct, in real life intelligence and aptitude mean little. Connections and the ability to navigate/ exploit your social network are as important as anything. Going to Harvard “vets” you for all future employers and gives you a social circle with access to money and power.

Even if you just party your way through school at an Ivy you are likely to far and away exceed the earnings of someone who worked their butt off at a state school… see every VP of Goldman. I think you can make a good argument that playing lacrosse is a better use of your time at a NESCAC or Ivy than being a biochem major, based on ROR for your time.

A few thoughts.

This is not true for all the Ivy League graduates. Actually many of their graduates have shown up with some of the worst debt to income ratios in recent assessments - primarily in the liberal arts programs.

Definitely true for those in the top 3/4th in their professional programs - doctors, lawyers, engineers, mbas, etc. As for the bottom quartile - not everyone who did well in high school makes it in the real world.

Really only applies to the Ivy League and maybe 10 other Ivy-like brands (think UChicago or Standford). After that large state schools do as well as any.

The big lie is that paying $70,000 to go to the 45th best school is some how better than paying $15,000 to go to the 175th best school. A complete fiction made up by US News and college admissions offices. That data is just not there.

 

[SAJ-99]

With rare exceptions, college is otherwise a waste of money.

Not if every employer has a bias toward either having the degree (which is warranted because it tends to show some measure of aptitude or motivation) or a bias towards some schools over others. Sure, the business degree from South Dakota State is the largely the same as the business degree from Stanford, but if employers think there is a difference then it changes the NPV calc.

@wllm Endowments are used for a lot of things, like expanding and building new facilities. There is a problem where schools somehow feel the need to compete in the endowment arena, size and returns. If they plow endowment $ into keeping tuition low, the endowment won't last long. We also have to be honest and say that alumni can direct where donations go and those for many schools would rather see a state-of-the-art facility build for the athletics program than they would a science facility or library.

 

[TheTone]

When a business is stressed, they cut unproductive product lines and unproductive employees.

Universities seem to have a hard time doing that, though, re the art history major who owes $250K and there are 3 jobs paying $50K/year (and no, I don't know how many jobs there are, nor what they pay, but you get my drift). Or teachers with similar debt.

Well when you have profs making six figure salaries that have tenure, are basically unfireable, super unproductive and bring in no funding you gotta find the money somewhere to pay them and it’s coming from students. I can think of one professor at my local university that essentially doesn’t teach anymore, no research, doesn’t speak with his colleagues and yet still on the payroll. I had a professor when I was in school that just went awol part way through my last semester due to his marriage falling apart. He was back a semester later with zero repercussions.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I assume someone with a art history major would work in a gallery or museum. There is a demand for these folks but the problem is the supply is so much greater and the pay is probably horrible.

My guess is 1% of art history majors end up in galleries/museums. 2% end up teaching art history to future students who have made the same mistake they have. 2% plan on living off of mom and dad's money for life. 5% are actually smart folks who found it interesting and just needed any BA to go to business school or law school. 15% end up going back to school for a more useful major. 75% end up all day asking if you want that grande or vente while they whine about their student loan debt.

 

[Hem]

I mean in that scene the other guy is actually correct, in real life intelligence and aptitude mean little. Connections and the ability to navigate/ exploit your social network are as important as anything. Going to Harvard “vets” you for all future employers and gives you a social circle with access to money and power.

Even if you just party your way through school at an Ivy you are likely to far and away exceed the earnings of someone who worked their butt off at a state school… see every VP of Goldman. I think you can make a good argument that playing lacrosse is a better use of your time at a NESCAC or Ivy than being a biochem major, based on ROR for your time.

What about playing club lacrosse at power house ZooMass leads to banging nails in Montana?

 

[longbow51]

Well when you have profs making six figure salaries that have tenure, are basically unfireable, super unproductive and bring in no funding you gotta find the money somewhere to pay them and it’s coming from students. I can think of one professor at my local university that essentially doesn’t teach anymore, no research, doesn’t speak with his colleagues and yet still on the payroll. I had a professor when I was in school that just went awol part way through my last semester due to his marriage falling apart. He was back a semester later with zero repercussions.

As I said, tenure has to go. We have to get serious about education. We're getting our asses kicked internationally.

 

[jakenbake]

I always tell my kids, "money may not buy happiness but I've never met a happy poor person".

In the same vein a quote that has always stuck with me is "they say that money isn't everything, but I'd like to see you live without it"

 

[VikingsGuy]

As I said, tenure has to go. We have to get serious about education. We're getting our asses kicked internationally.

Cheap labor and low regulatory schemes are kicking our asses. Our university output is the greatest in the world and about the only reason we are still in the game given the first point. Our school financing system sucks as does the proliferation of worthless majors, but the caliber of engineers, chemists, lawyers, doctors, mbas etc we mint are the envy of the world.

 

[Redmt]

I heard news blurb interview with some 20's female that was whining that her student loans were preventing her from buying the house she wanted on the life schedule she had planned. The interview was in front of a million dollar house. A million at the least, maybe more.

 

[VikingsGuy]

In the same vein a quote that has always stuck with me is "they say that money isn't everything, but I'd like to see you live without it"

My dad always said, "it is better to be rich and healthy than sick and poor". Hard to argue with the man's logic.

 

[noharleyyet]

Matriculation litmus . . . obligatory Hunter Biden/Jared Kushner/Chelsea Clinton/Donald Jr fistbump

Ok...back to the Biden failures vote buying diversion.

 

[Dougfirtree]

I mean in that scene the other guy is actually correct, in real life intelligence and aptitude mean little. Connections and the ability to navigate/ exploit your social network are as important as anything. Going to Harvard “vets” you for all future employers and gives you a social circle with access to money and power.

Even if you just party your way through school at an Ivy you are likely to far and away exceed the earnings of someone who worked their butt off at a state school… see every VP of Goldman. I think you can make a good argument that playing lacrosse is a better use of your time at a NESCAC or Ivy than being a biochem major, based on ROR for your time.

It gets even worse!

The One Parenting Decision That Really Matters

Almost none of the choices you make are as fraught as you think they are.

www.theatlantic.com