WARNING: Student Load Forgiveness is Very Unlikely to Pay for Your Next Elk Tag

[VikingsGuy]

Keep in mind that "liberal" education is not a political designation. It is a "widespread" education where students learn about a whole bunch of things that, along the way, teach them the fundamentals of thinking, problem solving, working with others, etc.

First of all, I am not confusing "liberal arts" or "liberal education" with liberal politics. I use the term "liberal arts" because that is what the schools themselves call the programs I am discussing.

As for liberal arts being the place where thinking, problem-solving, and working with others comes from I have a number of thoughts. First, this notion really is a tired trope that art history programs have been trotting out for 50 yrs. By itself, it does not support the notion of students, families or governments paying $3000,000 for an ivy league poetry degree or even a $100,000 small state school poetry degree. Second, I think a large part of these "skills" should be the outcome of the K-12 program we already pay for and do not have to be repeated again for 4 more years at the current college price point. Third, I already stated that more directly useful degree programs such as engineering or wildlife management should require a heavy dose of liberal arts classes to incorporate all their inherent benefits, so honestly how much more "thinking power" does a poetry major have than a pharmacy major that had a third of their credits in liberal arts classes? And, fourth, chemistry and biology classes also teach thinking, problem-solving, and working with others - and to suggest otherwise is embarrassing. Interestingly, law schools find STEM graduates consistently perform better in the critical reasoning and problem-solving portions of the law curriculum than liberal arts majors do.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Can't' say I agree about the worthless degrees. Your real estate agent, insurance agent, and what not probably majored in English, Psychology, Wildlife Biology, Art History, etc.

But being a real estate agent or insurance agent probably doesn't require a college degree for $200,000 and if it does that degree should probably be in accounting or business administration.

In general though, over credentialing roles is a real problem and really just forces people into unneeded expensive college diplomas - and that benefits who? Colleges

 

[BrentD]

First of all, I am not confusing "liberal arts" or "liberal education" with liberal politics. I use the term "liberal arts" because that is what the schools themselves call the programs I am discussing.

As for liberal arts being the place where thinking, problem-solving, and working with others comes from I have a number of thoughts. First, this notion really is a tired trope that art history programs have been trotting out for 50 yrs. By itself, it does not support the notion of students, families or governments paying $3000,000 for an ivy league poetry degree or even a $100,000 small state school poetry degree. Second, I think a large part of these "skills" should be the outcome of the K-12 program we already pay for and do not have to be repeated again for 4 more years at the current college price point. Third, I already stated that more directly useful degree programs such as engineering or wildlife management should require a heavy dose of liberal arts classes to incorporate all their inherent benefits, so honestly how much more "thinking power" does a poetry major have than a pharmacy major that had a third of their credits in liberal arts classes? And, fourth, chemistry and biology classes also teach thinking, problem-solving, and working with others - and to suggest otherwise is embarrassing. Interestingly, law schools find STEM graduates consistently perform better in the critical reasoning and problem-solving portions of the law curriculum than liberal arts majors do.

No, it's not tired trope (who revived this stupid word from the dregs of the English language and made it fashionable? Probably another useless English major ). And shoving it back in k-12 doesn't work as they are deluged with other commandments about what they can and cannot teach (see our next president, Desantis for example).

You may think STEM majors are great. I spent me entire life in STEM. They are overrated. Among other issues STEM majors are generally horrible, on average, with communication abilities. But I digress. We can nitpick this type of major or that type of major all day long. If you want to micro manage your state universities, you will not get my support. They are already over micromanaged.

You have your prescription for how to fix higher ed, like it is some simple problem. It is not. Nor is it the vo-tech program you are advocating.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Just to be clear - I value higher education - including the liberal arts portion of that education. I have invested far more in the post-high school education for myself, wife and 3 kids than I have in a home or any other investment outside my 401k. I know that for my family these funds are showing very strong ROIs. I benefited from some great professors over the years who I remember fondly and am thankful for their guidance. I hope others get to experience the same. I also believe we have to do more to get the right degrees to the right "kids" at the right price to meet our social and economic challenges of the next 50 yrs.

But none of that changes the facts that the system has become an amenities arms race fueled by gov backed loans, artificial credential requirements in too many jobs force unneeded expense on families and taxpayers, Obamacare raised borrowing costs on students and families as a budget bait and switch that has now come to roost, education administrations have become fat and bloated and have little to do with educating our future adults, and that too much is spent on degrees that have no employment market value.

So, if you know what you are doing there is no greater wealth-creating opportunity on the planet presented to an average 18-year-old. If you don't know what you are doing there is a real chance the college money machine will fleece you, leaving you in a lifelong debt hole, and have you pointing fingers and begging for bailouts.

 

[VikingsGuy]

No, it's not tired trope (who revived this stupid word from the dregs of the English language and made it fashionable? Probably another useless English major ). And shoving it back in k-12 doesn't work as they are deluged with other commandments about what they can and cannot teach (see our next president, Desantis for example).

You may think STEM majors are great. I spent me entire life in STEM. They are overrated. Among other issues STEM majors are generally horrible, on average, with communication abilities. But I digress. We can nitpick this type of major or that type of major all day long. If you want to micro manage your state universities, you will not get my support. They are already over micromanaged.

You have your prescription for how to fix higher ed, like it is some simple problem. It is not. Nor is it the vo-tech program you are advocating.

If the trope fits . . .

Are you really saying that if a person has not learned how to work with others by the age of 18 (incl. 12 yrs of free formal education) that a $200,000 poetry degree will solve for that?

And of course STEM attracts the asperger's crowd, but that is not the point. I am not talking about just STEM. I am saying that a kid who wants to run a small business is benefited more by a business administration degree than a poetry degree.

As for vo-tech . . . a pharmacology phD is not a vo-tech program. An electrical engineering BS degree is not a vo-tech program. That phony branding of the argument just doesn't fly any more than [trope alert] only liberal arts majors know how to think.

 

[SAJ-99]

Here’s the answer.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Fix the interest so people are not paying for years upon years and the principle balance never changes because of the compounded interest.

That is one of issues I have with the "I'm paying 400B for some WAG degree rhetoric." That person with a WAGS degree has 60k of principle and 40k of interest, and is on a IDR plan at year 15.

Meaning
(1) 'We' already paid so no one is paying anything new for forgiveness (yes Dan yada yada fungible)
(2) A good portion of the 400B is accrued interest or projected interest, including that in the total IMHO is disingenuous
(3) Forgiveness on a IDR plan is already in the promissory note of a federal loan, so the person above will already get forgiveness assuming they reach 20/25 years without paying back the balance. They will already of paid back all the principle they will just be forgiven the accrued interest. Then the fed will tax them on this forgiveness so your paying taxes on interest which...
Add to that student loan interest deductions cap out at 2500 and phase out with income, unlike mortgage interest. So a millionaire get's to itemize with their palace but a nurse and a cop living in a city don't get to write of student loan interest... that's stupid.

...

I could take the list to 10, but yes you hit the nail on the head on so any issues.

The idea of PSLF is to direct folks with certain skills into geographic regions and sectors where they are needed, and might not otherwise seek employment. The current system is pretty myopic in my opinion. Private loans should be included, and loans should be paid out by year of services not after 10 or whatever, the all or nothing approach is antiquated and doesn't account for how society and job mobility works in 2023.

 

[VikingsGuy]

(1) 'We' already paid so no one is paying anything new for forgiveness (yes Dan yada yada fungible)
(2) A good portion of the 400B is accrued interest or projected interest, including that in the total IMHO is disingenuous
(3) Forgiveness on a IDR plan is already in the promissory note of a federal loan, so the person above will already get forgiveness assuming they reach 20/25 years without paying back the balance. They will already of paid back all the principle they will just be forgiven the accrued interest. Then the fed will tax them on this forgiveness so your paying taxes on interest which...
Add to that student loan interest deductions cap out at 2500 and phase out with income, unlike mortgage interest. So a millionaire get's to itemize with their palace but a nurse and a cop living in a city don't get to write of student loan interest... that's stupid.

The MMT approach to the issue Doesn't really work here either.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

The MMT approach to the issue Doesn't really work here either.

If the Fed needs a RN/PA/MD at the VA is it more cost effective to have them sign a contract upon entering med school and pay for their education and then have them work for x years or for them to take out loans private and public, accrue interest, and then pay them like 2x the salary in addition to PSLF in order to get them to work there. Folks would certainly take less upside in return for less personal risk.

Is it MMT or capital efficiency.

 

[VikingsGuy]

If the Fed needs a RN/PA/MD at the VA is it more cost effective to have them sign a contract upon entering med school and pay for their education and then have them work for x years or for them to take out loans private and public, accrue interest, and then pay them like 2x the salary in addition to PSLF in order to get them to work there. Folks would certainly take less upside in return for less personal risk.

Is it MMT or capital efficiency.

#indenturedservitude

 

[VikingsGuy]

If the Fed needs a RN/PA/MD at the VA is it more cost effective to have them sign a contract upon entering med school and pay for their education and then have them work for x years or for them to take out loans private and public, accrue interest, and then pay them like 2x the salary in addition to PSLF in order to get them to work there. Folks would certainly take less upside in return for less personal risk.

Is it MMT or capital efficiency.

Also, are you suggesting the most effective and efficient process is for the 3 million employers in the US to spontaneously connect with the 5 million incoming freshman college students and agree in each individual case what degree each student will be pursuing, agree on how many years each student will work with each employer for some agreed upon salary starting 4 years from now? Not really a scaleable example.

Plus who would agree to pay for the poetry major?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Also, are you suggesting the most effective and efficient process is for the 3 million employers in the US to spontaneously connect with the 5 million incoming freshman college students and agree in each individual case what degree each student will be pursuing, agree on how many years each student will work with each employer for some agreed upon salary starting 4 years from now? Not really a scaleable example.

Plus who would agree to pay for the poetry major?

No... just discussing a rework of PSLF

#indenturedservitude

Seems to work for Deloitte, Mackenzie, BCG, and Baine

All my friends who got their MBAs that way said they'd do it again in a heart beat.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Also, are you suggesting the most effective and efficient process is for the 3 million employers in the US to spontaneously connect with the 5 million incoming freshman college students and agree in each individual case what degree each student will be pursuing, agree on how many years each student will work with each employer for some agreed upon salary starting 4 years from now? Not really a scaleable example.

Plus who would agree to pay for the poetry major?

A theater production company. I appreciate your thread and this discourse. You need to stop with the cheap shots on humanities studies. Just imagine the world as a collection of engineers, mathematicians, doctors and computer science people.
I see no color in that world. Acting talent and writers would have no means of expression. In that black and white vacuum just where would the Fresh Tracks videographers fit? All those wasted hours editing film and crap like that. Because that’s part of the collegiate studies you marginalize as bullshit degrees.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Plus who would agree to pay for the poetry major?

This feels like a personal attack,

signed, a former creative writing major.

 

[BrentD]

Also, are you suggesting the most effective and efficient process is for the 3 million employers in the US to spontaneously connect with the 5 million incoming freshman college students and agree in each individual case what degree each student will be pursuing, agree on how many years each student will work with each employer for some agreed upon salary starting 4 years from now? Not really a scaleable example.

Plus who would agree to pay for the poetry major?

If the trope fits . . .

Are you really saying that if a person has not learned how to work with others by the age of 18 (incl. 12 yrs of free formal education) that a $200,000 poetry degree will solve for that?

And of course STEM attracts the asperger's crowd, but that is not the point. I am not talking about just STEM. I am saying that a kid who wants to run a small business is benefited more by a business administration degree than a poetry degree.

As for vo-tech . . . a pharmacology phD is not a vo-tech program. An electrical engineering BS degree is not a vo-tech program. That phony branding of the argument just doesn't fly any more than [trope alert] only liberal arts majors know how to think.

But the trope doesn't fit, because there is no trope.

Not everyone is like you - who decided within an hour of birth to plot the line with the lowest fractal dimension from that hospital to the legal stratosphere of a particular major corporation.

In fact, the poetry major knocked around all of his life following a path that was damn near D=2.0. and eventually started an arts-fartsy coffee shop where soccer moms and dads hang out while Junior is captaining his soccer (this is new-age, football is passe) as part of his plan to padding his resume for law school applications and beyond. Somebody had to do it.

I was like you. I knew where I was going from the first moment I can remember. I took a straight line, or damn close to it. My undergrad was 4 yrs, not 6 (big savings there) and my only student loan was during grad school when money markets were bringing 18%. I invested every penny of the $5k in the money market and paid off the loan interest free when I graduated.

My real estate agent was a PhD student (may or may not have graduated) in weed science I believe. She chose a path of a higher dimension. Who cares? It worked.

But not everyone is like me (or you).

PS. trope is the kind of word a frustrated, "wish I was a poetry major" person would use.

 

[rtraverdavis]

It gets even worse!

The One Parenting Decision That Really Matters

Almost none of the choices you make are as fraught as you think they are.

www.theatlantic.com

This whole thread has been worth dipping into for this one article. Thanks for posting it.

 

[VikingsGuy]

A theater production company. I appreciate your thread and this discourse. You need to stop with the cheap shots on humanities studies. Just imagine the world as a collection of engineers, mathematicians, doctors and computer science people.
I see no color in that world. Acting talent and writers would have no means of expression. In that black and white vacuum just where would the Fresh Tracks videographers fit? All those wasted hours editing film and crap like that. Because that’s part of the collegiate studies you marginalize as bullshit degrees.

My premise is not that artists, writers, etc don't have value. They have huge value.

What I am saying is that the world's pool of great artists, and writers is not advanced by issuing $200,000 4 year degrees.

 

[BrentD]

This feels like a personal attack,

signed, a former creative writing major.

No, he is a frustrated wanna bee, trying to justify to himself why he wasn't that poetry major

 

[noharleyyet]

DNC marionettes are reading this thread and ROFL'ing their derrieres off . . .

 

[VikingsGuy]

But the trope doesn't fit, because there is no trope.

Not everyone is like you - who decided within an hour of birth to plot the line with the lowest fractal dimension from that hospital to the legal stratosphere of a particular major corporation.

In fact, the poetry major knocked around all of his life following a path that was damn near D=2.0. and eventually started an arts-fartsy coffee shop where soccer moms and dads hang out while Junior is captaining his soccer (this is new-age, football is passe) as part of his plan to padding his resume for law school applications and beyond. Somebody had to do it.

I was like you. I knew where I was going from the first moment I can remember. I took a straight line, or damn close to it. My undergrad was 4 yrs, not 6 (big savings there) and my only student loan was during grad school when money markets were bringing 18%. I invested every penny of the $5k in the money market and paid off the loan interest free when I graduated.

My real estate agent was a PhD student (may or may not have graduated) in weed science I believe. She chose a path of a higher dimension. Who cares? It worked.

But not everyone is like me (or you).

PS. trope is the kind of word a frustrated, "wish I was a poetry major" person would use.

I am not replying to argue your broader point.

But to set the record straight, generally speaking, from birth to the age 6 I wanted to be a garbage man - I mean I really wanted to be a garbage man. From 7-8 I was going to be an astronaut. From 9-18 I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do other than I did not want to sell insurance (what my dad did). From 18-22 I was torn between biochemistry and law. From 23-25 I did biochem grad school. From 26-32 I did science for a living. Somewhwere around 25-26 I realized I was wrong and starting thinking about law school. Did that while working as a scientist. 33-36 played the firm game. 36-56 played the corporate game. From 40-45 repeatedly thought of getting mba but decided I had had enough school. 56-60 pre-retirement - probably will finish in the corporate game, but who knows.