WARNING: Student Load Forgiveness is Very Unlikely to Pay for Your Next Elk Tag

VikingsGuy said:
My premise is not that artists, writers, etc don't have value. They have huge value.

What I am saying is that the world's pool of great artists, and writers is not advanced by issuing $200,000 4 year degrees.
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Where did you find this $200k Bachelor’s degree? It’s hyperbolic wording, no? Maybe we’ll call it alternative facts.
 
Benfromalbuquerque said:
Where did you find this $200k Bachelor’s degree? It’s hyperbolic wording, no? Maybe we’ll call it alternative facts.
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The US 2022 average for college tuition, fees, books, room, board, etc is reported as aprox $40k. The average completion time 4.5 years. $40Kx4.5=$180k. I apologize for rounding up in a random phone-typed internet post.
 
College is vastly overrated and over priced. Most 4 degrees could be earned in half the schooling they now require. The "liberal arts" portion of college is just filler courses that serve only to enrich the schools.

Most kids would be better off getting a real job for a year or 2 out of high school. They might grow up and realize that college is a huge waste of time and money. The rest would be in better shape to go to college and make it worthwhile.
 
VikingsGuy said:
I am not replying to argue your broader point.

But to set the record straight, generally speaking, from birth to the age 6 I wanted to be a garbage man - I mean I really wanted to be a garbage man. From 7-8 I was going to be an astronaut. From 9-18 I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do other than I did not want to sell insurance (what my dad did). From 18-22 I was torn between biochemistry and law. From 23-25 I did biochem grad school. From 26-32 I did science for a living. Somewhwere around 25-26 I realized I was wrong and starting thinking about law school. Did that while working as a scientist. 33-36 played the firm game. 36-56 played the corporate game. From 40-45 repeatedly thought of getting mba but decided I had had enough school. 56-60 pre-retirement - probably will finish in the corporate game, but who knows.
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okay! So you took a bit more interesting route. D approximates 1.175. Not too bad. Most kids don't even think about what they want to do at age 6.

BTW, most garbage men make more money (by a good bit) than most poetry professors. And even more than lots of STEM profs.
 
VikingsGuy said:
The US 2022 average for college tuition, fees, books, room, board, etc is reported as aprox $40k. The average completion time 4.5 years. $40Kx4.5=$180k. I apologize for rounding up.
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What is the median? Some of those outliers are going to pull that average way up, I suspect.

There are cheaper routes - take community college, etc. first. Not better, but cheaper.
 
Benfromalbuquerque said:
Where did you find this $200k Bachelor’s degree? It’s hyperbolic wording, no? Maybe we’ll call it alternative facts.
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No more hyperbolic than the belief that if we don't encourage 4 yr liberal arts degrees then we will end up in a colorless society run by STEM focused automaton's and art and theatre will come to screeching halt.
 
Mussgrass said:
College is vastly overrated and over priced. Most 4 degrees could be earned in half the schooling they now require. The "liberal arts" portion of college is just filler courses that serve only to enrich the schools.
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Again, it's not a vo-tech program. But the "average" student takes 5-6 yrs to complete the degree. I think closer to 6 actually. And that's not the university's fault.

Mussgrass said:
Most kids would be better off getting a real job for a year or 2 out of high school. They might grow up and realize that college is a huge waste of time and money. The rest would be in better shape to go to college and make it worthwhile.
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Maybe. They might also be a whole bunch better off if their parents had started pressing them early on to figure out what they wanted to do. Most of my undergrads didn't think of what they wanted to do after college until the final semester, if then. We are told we are always pushing our kids too fast - I don't have kids, but I'm damn sure others' kids are not being pushed AT ALL, much less too fast.
 
Junior college for the basic pre-reqs or complete cert/AA degree. And that ought to be provided to all students as an extension on K-12.
 
BrentD said:
What is the median? Some of those outliers are going to pull that average way up, I suspect.

There are cheaper routes - take community college, etc. first. Not better, but cheaper.
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No doubt there is a range, but I am not going to repeatedly post @wllm -esque eye charts every time I want to point out the high costs.

I agree smart students can get a real deal. My S-I-L took full advantage of cost arbitrage and still landed a BigTen degree. As for mean vs median, I doubt a big change. The big differences are in-state vs. out-of-state vs private. But then colleges don't encourage poetry majors to go in-state and doctors to go Ivy league so the issue of over-priced degrees remain.
 
VikingsGuy said:
TLdnr

The upshot is the neighborhood a kid is raised in has the second biggest effect (after the genetics of the parents).

“Three of the biggest predictors that a neighborhood will increase a child’s success are the percentage of households in which there are two parents, the percentage of residents who are college graduates, and the percentage of residents who return their census forms. These are neighborhoods, in other words, with many role models: adults who are smart, accomplished, engaged in their community, and committed to stable family lives.” Poor neighborhoods and rural areas just didn’t stack up.
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They listed Minneapolis as a top 5 city... I live 50 miles north, and you couldn't pay me enough to move my family there. I could make quite a bit more money if I wanted to commute there. Just isn't worth it to me. We'd prefer to live more rural than we do to be honest.
 
mulecreek said:
No more hyperbolic than the belief that if we don't encourage 4 yr liberal arts degrees then we will end up in a colorless society run by STEM focused automaton's and art and theatre will come to screeching halt.
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Riddle me this, Christie’s has an auction. Included is an original Michelangelo marble bust. Why is it that old-ass rock art has value?
 
VikingsGuy said:
No doubt there is a range, but I am not going to repeatedly post @wllm -esque eye charts every time I want to point out the high costs.

I agree smart students can get a real deal. My S-I-L took full advantage of cost arbitrage and still landed a BigTen degree. As for mean vs median, I doubt a big change. The big differences are in-state vs. out-of-state vs private. But then colleges don't encourage poetry majors to go in-state and doctors to go Ivy league so the issue of over-priced degrees remain.
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Graphics or not check into the methods though. Are they dividing the cost of the degree by 4 for an annual rate when it took the kid 6 yrs to get it done?

The bottom line is that college costs are going to continue to rise if the public continues to vote for politicians that love to target higher ed. It's a political trope, (no? did I use that word right?) of the red party to slash budgets in general, and higher ed in particular. And if you think your state universities are running on a cushy budget and faculty are paid ginormous or even decent salaries, you are sadly mistaken. Particularly, in the poetry departments (they are strictly 3rd world in the ivory tower).

But on a brighter note, my state is now about to pass a bill rolling back child labor laws so that those youngsters can get back in the meat packing houses where they belong, instead of chasing poetry degrees at Iowa State University. Good stuff, eh?
 
Benfromalbuquerque said:
Riddle me this, Christie’s has an auction. Included is an original Michelangelo marble bust. Why is it that old-ass rock art has value?
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Monetary value? You know that answer already, because someone other than me is willing to pay for it. Intrinsic/Societal value? Because it elicits emotion and feelings in the person viewing it.

My thoughts but they are not worth much, I am one of those colorless engineers that hasn't been educated enough to appreciate art for its intrinsic value.
 
Bowmannate2000 said:
They listed Minneapolis as a top 5 city... I live 50 miles north, and you couldn't pay me enough to move my family there. I could make quite a bit more money if I wanted to commute there. Just isn't worth it to me. We'd prefer to live more rural than we do to be honest.
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The western suburbs are about as good a situation as you can get to raise a family. Minneapolis on the news has nothing to do with it - you can live a long productive life without going into the city if that is your thing (but the sports, food, arts, etc is worth the 15 min drive to me). We are retiring up north, but our kids would have paid a high price for that being our permanent home.
 
mulecreek said:
No more hyperbolic than the belief that if we don't encourage 4 yr liberal arts degrees then we will end up in a colorless society run by STEM focused automaton's and art and theatre will come to screeching halt.
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Benfromalbuquerque said:
Riddle me this, Christie’s has an auction. Included is an original Michelangelo marble bust. Why is it that old-ass rock art has value?
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Supply demand.

I'm 34 so a societal shift away from college to trades et al. just means job security. There is a non zero chance that in 30 years millennial plumbers are bitching about how they can't make any money because there are too many of them.

(exaggeration but you get the point)

There are some very high paying jobs in the arts, but there are 10x the degree holders. A good friend has an art history degree, works at a auction house, probably makes 3x what I do...

That and I'd argue the point of liberal arts degrees are to teach you how to adhere to deadlines, be accountable, work well in a group, and communicate effectively. The actual content doesn't matter, it's more did you have a ton of rigorous assignments for years and did you demonstrate via grades that you could produce a good final product. Can you use consultant speak and make a pretty PP, you're hired.
 
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VikingsGuy said:
The western suburbs are about as good a situation as you can get to raise a family. Minneapolis on the news has nothing to do with it - you can live a long productive life without going into the city if that is your thing (but the sports, food, arts, etc is worth the 15 min drive to me). We are retiring up north, but our kids would have paid a high price for that being our permanent home.
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Very true, we just hate the crowding and traffic. Lower wages up here, but also lower cost of living. I do wish I was more career focused in my 20's. Got an AAS going to community college in the evenings after work a few years back. Paid cash, no loans. Added a few tech certifications. Now I have no school debt and a good looking future in IT 👍.
 
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