Use Enough Gun

[Ben Lamb]

If most would be truly honest it's probably a lot shorter distance and a much less recoil than we are currently using...

40-65 in Winchester 86 would cover it.

Put a tang sight on it & practice out to 250 yards. Anything beyond that, and it's the Fire Direction Center calling the shot.

 

[ludville1]

I remember reading a long time ago that there is no such thing as too much gun for deer. That said, I believe that shot placement and bullet construction are still King. In my time, I have used a lot of different calibers for deer hunting. Shot two deer with a .243, a buck and a doe, and both deer died. Took my biggest buck ever in 1998 with a 30.06. I just prefer magnums with big scopes nowadays and hunt with a .257 Wby. mag., a 7mm Rem. mag., and a .300 Wby. mag. All three of these guns have killed nice bucks, and I grab which ever one that I feel like taking on a given day. I have a new .264 Win. mag. arriving tomorrow that I am sure will work as well as the other three. None of these magnums are necessary for hunting the Northern Michigan woods that I hunt...just my preference.

 

[Bullshot]

I didn’t have the patience to read this whole thread but I agree with some early responses indicating Rifle+Bullet Selection+Shot Placement will always equal a well-dead animal.

I err on the side of heavier caliber, or heavy for caliber, and close shots. Perhaps this stems from my eastern life, using shotguns, muzzleloaders and bow for deer. I would rather use a 250 grain round nose in 35 whelen than a light and fast setup. But if I was taking over 300 yard shots my feelings would change, the heavy caliber and heavy for caliber throws a rainbow arc, limiting my options and increasing range estimation and holdover risk at those shots. Then I would opt for a 6.5 or 7mm maybe. And still I wouldn’t go past 450yds in perfect conditions since I am not as good as the rifle could
be in the hands of someone else. So know your weapon and its limits - and YOURS. I think the frustration people express in these posts is well founded but not for the reasons of caliber. It happens with bows too. super
light, super fast arrows for flat trajectory ease the worries about hitting but don’t leave a good margin if your shot goes astray. Some people never want to admit their shot COULD go astray, or shoot beyond their limits, and then bad things happen. So its not about caliber or setup, its about a mismatch between the shooter and sometimes their ego or maybe just their understanding of the circumstances. Won’t fix that with a bigger gun.

 

[mtmuley]

This is a debate that will never be solved, but if you do go hunt the Dark Continent, they won't let you shoot their large game with a 6.5 Creedmoor.

I know somebody using a .17 Hornet. Not for dangerous stuff of course. And a .30-30. I think they took a .270 Sherman and a 6mm Creed also. mtmuley

 

[JLS]

Being a good enough marksman is far more important than enough gun. A fundamental understanding of anatomy and shot placement helps too.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

So this story about the failed 243 shot makes me wonder. Oh, I am not a big fan of the 243 as a deer cartridge but if it was all I had I'd use in in a sec. maybe if your friend had used a different bullet or chose a different shot the outcome would have been different. The 243 did not fail, the user did! Pretty much all failure's blamed on either cartridge or bullet are actually user failure's! What is most important is knowing how to use what you have and when and what shot to pass up!

Thank you for your response.


Pardon I but I disagree.



Below is link to the anatomy of a deer,,,,,structurally the same as an elk. The shoulder blade covers the upper part of the lung,,,,,lethal zone and also the spinal column,,,another lethal zone.



The shoulder blade is so close to most of the lungs, that prudence should dictate that any caliber used should be able to penetrate the shoulder blade or the big heavy bones just below it.



As former hunting guide I have developed great confidence in Barnes bullets. A 243 with a Barnes bullet would have penetrated that shoulder blade.



Either way a caliber should be “enough gun” to deal with issues that will arise even for the best hunters.



A Murphy’s Law insurance policy.



Any 257 caliber or 6.5 caliber would have penetrated that deers’ shoulder blade.



For many years I was a hunting guide for hunters going after huge wild boar on barley fields. Many were true Russian Boar with the thick cartilaginous shoulder plate that also cover the lungs.



I have had my lead core .270 bullet bounce right off that plate on a coming in angling shot.



A few day later another hunter took that boar and we could see the fresh scar that did not even get to meat. That would not have happened with the .270 and Barnes bullets



There is a middle ground between calibers with too much kick and more power than needed and ones which are suited for only the most ideal conditions.



As guide I set my minimum caliber at 6.5 and discouraged hunters from going over 30 cal due to recoil.



Anything I have said about using a .243 you can triple regarding a hunter using a .223.

anatomy of a deer body - Google Search

 

[HandgunHunter]

Hmmmm......

I’ll still just keep killing everything with a handgun.....

that way I don’t have to argue about rifle calibers lacking effectiveness....

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Thank you for your response.


Pardon I but I disagree.



Below is link to the anatomy of a deer,,,,,structurally the same as an elk. The shoulder blade covers the upper part of the lung,,,,,lethal zone and also the spinal column,,,another lethal zone.



The shoulder blade is so close to most of the lungs, that prudence should dictate that any caliber used should be able to penetrate the shoulder blade or the big heavy bones just below it.



As former hunting guide I have developed great confidence in Barnes bullets. A 243 with a Barnes bullet would have penetrated that shoulder blade.



Either way a caliber should be “enough gun” to deal with issues that will arise even for the best hunters.



A Murphy’s Law insurance policy.



Any 257 caliber or 6.5 caliber would have penetrated that deers’ shoulder blade.



For many years I was a hunting guide for hunters going after huge wild boar on barley fields. Many were true Russian Boar with the thick cartilaginous shoulder plate that also cover the lungs.



I have had my lead core .270 bullet bounce right off that plate on a coming in angling shot.



A few day later another hunter took that boar and we could see the fresh scar that did not even get to meat. That would not have happened with the .270 and Barnes bullets



There is a middle ground between calibers with too much kick and more power than needed and ones which are suited for only the most ideal conditions.



As guide I set my minimum caliber at 6.5 and discouraged hunters from going over 30 cal due to recoil.



Anything I have said about using a .243 you can triple regarding a hunter using a .223.

anatomy of a deer body - Google Search

There’s a few guys on here who have some anatomy pics that would be super helpful to this thread.

 

[Nick87]

There’s a few guys on here who have some anatomy pics that would be super helpful to this thread.

Staysharp?

 

[tjones]

I didn’t read the whole thread but there is a chance I could be the first to say regardless of caliber if you hit the Internet forum dead zone nothing will kill um .

 

[MTLabrador]

The last elk I shot with my .270 was a young 5 point. 140 grain Accubond, sharp quartering to angle, hit him on the point of the shoulder and recovered the bullet under the hide on the offside hip. That’s probably close to three feet of penetration.

I have a hard time believing any bullet out of a .270 “bounced off” a pig.

 

[JLS]

Staysharp?

From Russia With Love.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Staysharp?

Forgot about that, yes. I was thinking greenhorn or mudranger1.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

The last elk I shot with my .270 was a young 5 point. 140 grain Accubond, sharp quartering to angle, hit him on the point of the shoulder and recovered the bullet under the hide on the offside hip. That’s probably close to three feet of penetration.

I have a hard time believing any bullet out of a .270 “bounced off” a pig.

I understand your disbelief completely.



Thank You for responding to my post MTL,

That happened about 15 years ago. Before the drought hit the southwest, particularly central California where pigs were everywhere. I hunted them year round, especially so during the summer when the barley crops were getting ready to be harvested.



The seed heads were full of grain then and the boar and pigs came to the ranches sometimes a hundred at a time.



I said boar and pigs above because the herds were mixed with what looked like kinda normal barnyard pigs,,,leaner and more muscular than your average farm pig and then there were the ones that expressed that wild Russian Boar gene. Mostly this was what the herds were composed of.



These were big critters too, not like the little spuds guys are shooting in Texas.



There was a hanging scale at the ranch barn,,,,an old WW2 surplus Quantset hut so there was no just guessing the weights.



The heaviest were pushing 400 pounds. One or two even more.



As those black boar got older and older they development this 1 inch thick, tough, even hard cartilaginous plate around the shoulder area.



It was just amazing skinning them out and handling plate. It was armor.



Examining the original range of Russian wild boar, it matched that of the Tiger. They were a matched pair for defense and offense. An even fight.



Beyond that heavy shoulder plate the entire hide of a Russian boar has this “grit” in it. You can feel it when skinnig them out. Knives dull so quickly skinning boar, and the older they get the more of this armor seems to develop.



One ranch wife adopted a little male and had it till it died of old age,,,,Yikes did that critter grow into a huge legend worthy beast.



I knew another rancher/hunter that raised a male boar,,,,I think they get more aggressive with age.



Anyway,,,,that boar was full grown with huge sharp tusks and went after two horses, and “unzipped” their stomach...all the guts hanging out,,,,the horses were dead on their feet.



The boar I mentioned that the .270 bounced off of was crossing a field coming out of the barley. I guess he was about a 350 pounds, a mature male and I was leaning against a fence post. He stopped at 150 yards and just stared at me.



I took a carefully placed shot trying to just get on the other side of that plate and fired. He went down like he legs collapsed. I bolt another round I and kept my scope right on him in case he even twitched. He did not.



Then just as I was getting up putting my pack on,,,,,he got up and ran away. Never saw him again, gone in a flash.



I went to were he was down and barely a drop of blood. A few days later, one of the other fellows I was guiding shot a boar that matched that one and he had a huge fresh gash in his shoulder plate, same side.



You know, I keep hearing that shooting through brush even grass will deflect a bullet,,,so why not a huge shoulder plate??????????



I shot big wild boar by the trucks load back then on depredation permits,,,even under the moonlight.



My favorite caliber was the 35 Whelen. It really layed them down and kept them down, Deal done!!!!!



I tried the .270 again when I switched to Barnes all copper bullets,,,,it really did the job well. Those bullets really penetrate and bones are child’s play to them.



Still I really became committed to a serious caliber with extra grit. I never did have supper kickers,,,,,but forget the pea-shooters.



Also in my hunters background was many years of hunting that northwest corner of Wyoming,,,I lived there. I just loved hunting high country antelope up in the aspens,,,,with lots of grizzlys about.



The lightest caliber I used up there was the .270 with those super long and super tough 180 grain Barnes originals.



Man did they penetrate. All that said, I used my 35 Whelen more than any other rifle for high country antelope.



Things happen in wild country,,,,best to be capable of having more “grit” in ones gun than might seem needed.



None of these rifles were brutal kickers,,,,,that said I have not the slightest inclination to go around with pea shooters.



Another factor on the plate in some remote wilderness southwest canyons are leftover range bulls. All the cattle have been rounded up, but you get these old gruff bulls just living wild,,,not really owned any more and they can be a force to contend with. Really mean grouchy SOB’s.



Sorry no pea shooters,,,,oh and one last jab as pea shooters. Once I did has this little .223 Mini Mauser I decided to hunt with. Coming into the willows I ran right into a gruff boar bear, he just stood his ground and was making that chopping noise with his jaws which indicates aggression.



Good heaven did that little rifle make me feel foolish.



Anyway, there was rock under the bears belly and I shot it with my pea shooter. It sprinkled his belly with rock fragments. He went up in the air, turned around mid air, he hit the ground running so hard he threw pebbles right back at me with his paws.



That was the beginning and end of my bringing a pea shooter into the bush. My absolute minimum for deer is a 6.5x55 Swede with long and heavy Lapua bullets. It has just a few more pounds of felt recoil than a .243.

Mustangs Rule

 

[MTLabrador]

I understand your disbelief completely.



Thank You for responding to my post MTL,

That happened about 15 years ago. Before the drought hit the southwest, particularly central California where pigs were everywhere. I hunted them year round, especially so during the summer when the barley crops were getting ready to be harvested.



The seed heads were full of grain then and the boar and pigs came to the ranches sometimes a hundred at a time.



I said boar and pigs above because the herds were mixed with what looked like kinda normal barnyard pigs,,,leaner and more muscular than your average farm pig and then there were the ones that expressed that wild Russian Boar gene. Mostly this was what the herds were composed of.



These were big critters too, not like the little spuds guys are shooting in Texas.



There was a hanging scale at the ranch barn,,,,an old WW2 surplus Quantset hut so there was no just guessing the weights.



The heaviest were pushing 400 pounds. One or two even more.



As those black boar got older and older they development this 1 inch thick, tough, even hard cartilaginous plate around the shoulder area.



It was just amazing skinning them out and handling plate. It was armor.



Examining the original range of Russian wild boar, it matched that of the Tiger. They were a matched pair for defense and offense. An even fight.



Beyond that heavy shoulder plate the entire hide of a Russian boar has this “grit” in it. You can feel it when skinnig them out. Knives dull so quickly skinning boar, and the older they get the more of this armor seems to develop.



One ranch wife adopted a little male and had it till it died of old age,,,,Yikes did that critter grow into a huge legend worthy beast.



I knew another rancher/hunter that raised a male boar,,,,I think they get more aggressive with age.



Anyway,,,,that boar was full grown with huge sharp tusks and went after two horses, and “unzipped” their stomach...all the guts hanging out,,,,the horses were dead on their feet.



The boar I mentioned that the .270 bounced off of was crossing a field coming out of the barley. I guess he was about a 350 pounds, a mature male and I was leaning against a fence post. He stopped at 150 yards and just stared at me.



I took a carefully placed shot trying to just get on the other side of that plate and fired. He went down like he legs collapsed. I bolt another round I and kept my scope right on him in case he even twitched. He did not.



Then just as I was getting up putting my pack on,,,,,he got up and ran away. Never saw him again, gone in a flash.



I went to were he was down and barely a drop of blood. A few days later, one of the other fellows I was guiding shot a boar that matched that one and he had a huge fresh gash in his shoulder plate, same side.



You know, I keep hearing that shooting through brush even grass will deflect a bullet,,,so why not a huge shoulder plate??????????



I shot big wild boar by the trucks load back then on depredation permits,,,even under the moonlight.



My favorite caliber was the 35 Whelen. It really layed them down and kept them down, Deal done!!!!!



I tried the .270 again when I switched to Barnes all copper bullets,,,,it really did the job well. Those bullets really penetrate and bones are child’s play to them.



Still I really became committed to a serious caliber with extra grit. I never did have supper kickers,,,,,but forget the pea-shooters.



Also in my hunters background was many years of hunting that northwest corner of Wyoming,,,I lived there. I just loved hunting high country antelope up in the aspens,,,,with lots of grizzlys about.



The lightest caliber I used up there was the .270 with those super long and super tough 180 grain Barnes originals.



Man did they penetrate. All that said, I used my 35 Whelen more than any other rifle for high country antelope.



Things happen in wild country,,,,best to be capable of having more “grit” in ones gun than might seem needed.



None of these rifles were brutal kickers,,,,,that said I have not the slightest inclination to go around with pea shooters.



Another factor on the plate in some remote wilderness southwest canyons are leftover range bulls. All the cattle have been rounded up, but you get these old gruff bulls just living wild,,,not really owned any more and they can be a force to contend with. Really mean grouchy SOB’s.



Sorry no pea shooters,,,,oh and one last jab as pea shooters. Once I did has this little .223 Mini Mauser I decided to hunt with. Coming into the willows I ran right into a gruff boar bear, he just stood his ground and was making that chopping noise with his jaws which indicates aggression.



Good heaven did that little rifle make me feel foolish.



Anyway, there was rock under the bears belly and I shot it with my pea shooter. It sprinkled his belly with rock fragments. He went up in the air, turned around mid air, he hit the ground running so hard he threw pebbles right back at me with his paws.



That was the beginning and end of my bringing a pea shooter into the bush. My absolute minimum for deer is a 6.5x55 Swede with long and heavy Lapua bullets. It has just a few more pounds of felt recoil than a .243.

Mustangs Rule

To be fair, I’ve never shot any kind of pork.

 

[HandgunHunter]

You guys are doing it wrong.....this boar with a 1” thick shield fell pretty quick to a wee little 10mm.
Your rifle only has 10x or more energy/penetration.

 

[rwc101]

 

[jt13]

I've now realized I've lived too long without a sweet first name like Razor

 

[The Hedgehog]

Forgot about that, yes. I was thinking greenhorn or mudranger1.

I think the anatomy video is on page 3 of this one.

Lucky or good?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1417141781870858 I know the frontal shot has come up before. Given the right circumstances, I'd say good shot.

www.hunttalk.com

I packed a .223 looking for bears this weekend. Sorry if that ruffled anybody’s feathers. I plan to hunt with that little rifle a lot this spring, again.

 

[Otto Matic]

In all fairness, "pigs is tough, but they AIN'T bullet proof!"

I spent about 10 years trapping, hunting and killing feral hogs.
I still stumble into them on occasion.The rifle is an Anderson AM15 DIY in 6.8mm Rem SPC. Bullet was a Sierra 90 gr HP.
Honestly? I didn't think the bullet had a snowflake's chance in hell. I shot her broadside at about 50 yards behind a curtain of bloodweeds!
Same rifle, same handload with Sierra 90 grain HP. These two fell about an hour apart. Both one shot kills.

I can imagine that a shot at steep enough angle may be deflected by a hogs "shield", but not "bounce off".

Lot's of pigs in the Tex-Ok area that will fill the 300-400 pound slot.

I used a Ruger "Single Six" .22LR with 8" bbl to clean out pig traps.