U.S. supreme Court case - Big decision ahead

[TheJason]

It would only take a few wanton waste photos of their "subsistence hunting" on social media or popular media to pressure the Crows to actually consider managing wildlife as is done by New Mex and Ariz tribes.

I couldn't disagree more with this. In my experience, Crow tribal members don't care one iota about social pressure and expectations.

 

[Lost Arra]

I couldn't disagree more with this. In my experience, Crow tribal members don't care one iota about social pressure and expectations.

You may very well be correct but when I hear "subsistence hunting" and "feed my family" and then whole elk carcasses are found with with no heads I think the obvious lies should be put on display. Are those families living on antlers and brains?

 

[375H&H]

You may very well be correct but when I hear "subsistence hunting" and "feed my family" and then whole elk carcasses are found with with no heads I think the obvious lies should be put on display. Are those families living on antlers and brains?

Those obvious lies are on display over at Monstermuleys.com

 

[BWALKER77]

Just a note to add for those claiming that tribal entities can't manage wildlife....

I think the most expensive elk and mule deer tags (other than a very few auction tags) are on Indian reservations in Arizona and New Mexico.

The crow tried doesnt manage anything like the south west tribes. Only the fringes of the crow have any game and there is no season and no bag limit.

 

[BWALKER77]

Would increasing roadless areas in the northern Bighorns help keep the kill down? It would seem most elk killed would be “easy” elk that would be near vehicle access. I might be naive, but how many elk would be killed with difficult access?

You are assuming the Crows would follow the law. They wont.

 

[BWALKER77]

Yeah, they are poor. For a lot of reasons, mostly for reasons that resulted from them acting in good faith with an entity that proved to not be acting in good faith, the US Government and its elected officials. We effed them over, time and time again. We signed deals with them, then broke the deal, then when they starting shooting people over those broken deals, the US Government signed more deals, which again got broken.

Our Government signed deals with them, the same way the US Government signs deals with others, yet for some reason that is hard to understand, many feel those deals do not need to be honored. The deals were commonly a contract where we get their land for pennies on the dollar in exchange for a lot of empty promises. We get claim to most the resources we previously said belonged to the tribes.

We rounded them up on reservations and said we would manage their lands and other resource in a Trustee-Beneficiary relationship on their behalf. We stole billions of dollars from them as part of that Trustee-Beneficiary relationship, where it would have never been acknowledge and partially repaid except for a PO'd Blackfoot woman who demanded an accounting and payment of monies the US Government has been withholding. Even with that, they didn't get all that was owed, rather they had to make a compromise settlement - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobell_v._Salazar

What they get is not "Government Subsidized." What they get is a small portion of the payment/compensation/renumeration that was promised to them. They gave up an asset, their amazing lands, in exchange for these things, all documented under Treaties, which at their basic level are nothing more than contract. The US Government never has, and probably never will, make good on these deals.

We can't even manage their lands properly or keep an accounting of the payments that are owed to them, even though we promised that is what we would do. The reason they have "Government subsidized" houses is because that is how the US Government set it up for them. On most reservations, you do not, and you cannot, hold fee title to the land/house you might live in. Imagine not being able to own the roof over your head. That would provide almost no incentive to care for it, improve it, invest in it. Hard to have much future or stability when you cannot have a property right in the most basic essential, your house.

These tribal law settlements are part of a deal that was made to buy/steal their land from them. We made a lot of promises that we would forever manage what little land they were allowed to retain and that we would give them the proceeds from management of that land. We also promised that in exchange for all that land we would forever provide certain items to them. That is the deal we made. We don't have to like it, but that is what our leaders of the past thought was a good deal at the time, and in retrospect was surely a great deal for everyone other than the tribes and their members.

Having grown up next to a reservation and a lot of friends from tribes, I could go on and on.

If we want to have a discussion about the impacts of this case, and those impacts could be far reaching, then let's have the discussion. That discussion can be had without the BS comments about the tribes and the implication that this is the future they wanted or the future they bargained for when negotiating treaties and renegotiating broken treaties.

This case has a lot of undercurrents that can make for some ugly comments by those not inclined to think about Treaties as a contract to be followed by us. Those ugly comments will not be tolerated on this forum. Anyone making such comments, either outright or implied, will be toasted without warning.

Now, let's have a discussion of the case, what is unoccupied lands, how Wyoming will respond, what impacts this has on wildlife conservation, the fact that late winter tribal hunting has been occurring around Yellowstone Park for decades and includes bison, elk, sheep, deer, etc. , and on the many other points relevant to the case/topic.

Randy, you make some good points. However, what resulted from the clash of a modern industrial society and one still for all intents and purposes living in the stone age isnt a huge surprise. Really there could have been only one outcome and if anything the US government was pretty generous with them. In fact more generous than the tribes were with each other.
Honestly the the treaties and the reservation system has done great harm to the tribes and continues to do so. What should have been done is to treat indians like any other US citizen. Make them eligible for land grants under the homestead act and thereby assimilate them into the culture of the US. Of course it's too late now basicly we are stuck with poor decisions made in the 1800's.

 

[375H&H]

Governor Gordon's Statement on Herrera decision | Wyoming Game & Fish Department

Please click here to download the statement or see below:

wgfd.wyo.gov

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Governor Gordon's Statement on Herrera decision | Wyoming Game & Fish Department

Please click here to download the statement or see below:

wgfd.wyo.gov

To save the click...

 

[Trial153]

This has been much to do about nothing. I don't see either side significantly changing policies or behaviors.

 

[Sytes]

About as good a statement as can be made by WY Governor... Hopefully MT, "...will stand up for a system that preserves the decades of conservation work..." and does not kowtow / let snowflakes fall, to the likes of corruption as exemplified within the NW MT Browning based setting...

 

[Big Fin]

About as good a statement as can be made by WY Governor... Hopefully MT, "...will stand up for a system that preserves the decades of conservation work..." and does not kowtow / let snowflakes fall, to the likes of corruption as exemplified within the NW MT Browning based setting...

Montana spent much of the 1990s negotiating with tribes. The number of tribes that have treaty-based hunting rights that cover parts of Montana is immense. Most of the tribes have followed the agreements to some extent. That said, there are some tribes, or individual tribal members, that have no interest in negotiating agreements.

I know the elk issue in Wyoming makes people think this is new. I would suggest people read how the MT-tribal allocations of bison opportunity came about in the mid-2000's. I would also suggest folks go down to West Yellowstone and Gardiner when the tribes are hunting bison. Any elk or ram close to a road is in serious danger of getting shot. Yes, they shoot a lot of elk on the winter range. It has been happening for decades. Same with moose and other species in NW Montana.

Whether or not Montana has been able to keep Pandora in the box, albeit a pretty big box, remains to be seen. This case may embolden some tribal members to disregard the agreements their tribes may have struck with MT and result in more hunting by tribal members. And those who do not recognize Montana authority in wildlife might show up and try to force the issue here, setting back what is always a tenuous agreement between a state, Montana, and the tribes as sovereigns that view these agreements as big concessions on their part when measured against what rights are outlined in their treaties.

 

[mottlet]

What should have been done is to treat indians like any other US citizen. Make them eligible for land grants under the homestead act and thereby assimilate them into the culture of the US.

What are the chances you'll remember saying this on the internet when the culture of the U.S. takes a decided turn to the urban and the majority think that owning guns and shooting animals is a relic from a bygone age? Who gets to hang on to their culture in the face of a changing world? Everyone? No one? Just you?

 

[MTGomer]

What are the chances you'll remember saying this on the internet when the culture of the U.S. takes a decided turn to the urban and the majority think that owning guns and shooting animals is a relic from a bygone age? Who gets to hang on to their culture in the face of a changing world? Everyone? No one? Just you?

Preferably everyone.
Indians are not hanging onto their culture.
The reservation system does the opposite of preserve their culture.
They are living in hunger, poverty and addiction with the US government keeping its foot on the back of their heads, handing them free shit in exchange for control of every aspect of their lives, their land and their affairs. The BIA is a useless, corrupt bureaucracy that should be disbanded and their trust powers over Indians given back to Indians.

I could write 10 paragraphs and not even scratch the surface on how much bullshit I have to jump through with the BIA just to deliver electricity from an existing line on tribal land, 500 feet across tribal land to the home of a tribal member on tribal land. That’s for something as simple as a power connection.

Now imagine a couple hundred miles of water pipeline and a treatment plant to get clean water to the poorest people in the country that doesn’t have it.
We’ll spend $5 dealing with BIA bureaucracy for every $1 spent building or designing.

They shouldn’t be forced to assimilate but they shouldn’t be treated like children by a bunch of useless parasites that could never hold a private sector job themselves, either.

 

[rmauch20]

@MTGomer If things are as you Describe them. Let me ask you this, If I keep giving you heroin for free. Am I at fault for continuing to supply you or are you at fault for excepting it and using it?

 

[MTGomer]

If I was born addicted to heroin because my mom was an addict her whole life also born addicted to it, surrounded by people addicted to heroin is it entirely my fault?

Maybe quit giving me heroin and demand I get a job.

 

[Sytes]

Welfare system... a proven model that works.

 

[BuzzH]

Preferably everyone.
Indians are not hanging onto their culture.
The reservation system does the opposite of preserve their culture.
They are living in hunger, poverty and addiction with the US government keeping its foot on the back of their heads, handing them free shit in exchange for control of every aspect of their lives, their land and their affairs. The BIA is a useless, corrupt bureaucracy that should be disbanded and their trust powers over Indians given back to Indians.

I could write 10 paragraphs and not even scratch the surface on how much bullshit I have to jump through with the BIA just to deliver electricity from an existing line on tribal land, 500 feet across tribal land to the home of a tribal member on tribal land. That’s for something as simple as a power connection.

Now imagine a couple hundred miles of water pipeline and a treatment plant to get clean water to the poorest people in the country that doesn’t have it.
We’ll spend $5 dealing with BIA bureaucracy for every $1 spent building or designing.

They shouldn’t be forced to assimilate but they shouldn’t be treated like children by a bunch of useless parasites that could never hold a private sector job themselves, either.

I so didn't want to respond to this, its at best, very thinly veiled racism and I have to say I have lost a boatload of respect for several people on this board over this SC decision. I guess the positive that comes from these threads is that they expose people for what they really are.

I think many need to read the treaty, there is again, a contract in place that states the US Government is responsible for providing certain things to the tribes via the treaty/contract. It also outlines certain rights, including the right to hunt.

It also seems to me that statements like those in the quote above, are making it sound as if the only inefficiencies in the whole world are at the hands of the BIA and tribal members. That's pure bullshit. I can show you mountains of inefficiencies in city, county, state, and federal government, as well as private companies that run like total crap. I can show you households that are run like crap. Its not unique to those living on reservations, at all.

The bigger issue to me, is that while I'm not really that happy with the decision from a purely conservation standpoint, what I am happy about it that the US Government is being held accountable to the treaty signed by the Government and the Tribe. Its not the tribes Treaty, its not the US Governments treaty...its OUR treaty. Both parties negotiated in good faith and both own it...and both are responsible to living up to said agreement.

That includes the US Government providing healthcare, upholding hunting rights, and everything else found in that treaty.

What my ass is tired of, is the city, state, and federal governments NOT living up to their end of bargains. They do it all the time and I'll give some specific examples:

The LWCF is supposed to receive 900 million in funding, yet the Government never fully funds it. Our very own Veterans are supposed to have sufficient medical care, promised by the Government when they signed their names to serve. Yet, our lovely politicians provide them with very sketchy medical care. Governors sign MOU's and break them at will. Its well past time that someone starts holding the people we elect to represent us accountable. Accountable to THEIR agreements and THEIR contracts. The Crow Tribe taking this to court and winning, I say good for them.

I'm happy that the rights granted in the treaty were upheld by the USSC, but at the same time, concerned with what exercising those rights may look like. Its well past time the Government is held accountable, because many times they aren't and I've grown tired of it.

 

[MTGomer]

I so didn't want to respond to this, its at best, very thinly veiled racism and I have to say I have lost a boatload of respect for several people on this board over this SC decision. I guess the positive that comes from these threads is that they expose people for what they really are.

I think many need to read the treaty, there is again, a contract in place that states the US Government is responsible for providing certain things to the tribes via the treaty/contract. It also outlines certain rights, including the right to hunt.

It also seems to me that statements like those in the quote above, are making it sound as if the only inefficiencies in the whole world are at the hands of the BIA and tribal members. That's pure bullshit. I can show you mountains of inefficiencies in city, county, state, and federal government, as well as private companies that run like total crap. I can show you households that are run like crap. Its not unique to those living on reservations, at all.

The bigger issue to me, is that while I'm not really that happy with the decision from a purely conservation standpoint, what I am happy about it that the US Government is being held accountable to the treaty signed by the Government and the Tribe. Its not the tribes Treaty, its not the US Governments treaty...its OUR treaty. Both parties negotiated in good faith and both own it...and both are responsible to living up to said agreement.

That includes the US Government providing healthcare, upholding hunting rights, and everything else found in that treaty.

What my ass is tired of, is the city, state, and federal governments NOT living up to their end of bargains. They do it all the time and I'll give some specific examples:

The LWCF is supposed to receive 900 million in funding, yet the Government never fully funds it. Our very own Veterans are supposed to have sufficient medical care, promised by the Government when they signed their names to serve. Yet, our lovely politicians provide them with very sketchy medical care. Governors sign MOU's and break them at will. Its well past time that someone starts holding the people we elect to represent us accountable. Accountable to THEIR agreements and THEIR contracts. The Crow Tribe taking this to court and winning, I say good for them.

I'm happy that the rights granted in the treaty were upheld by the USSC, but at the same time, concerned with what exercising those rights may look like. Its well past time the Government is .

The idea that treaties, negotiated after powerful colonialists murdered innocent women and children and then burned their villages were ‘negotiated in good faith’ is ridiculous.
It was more along the lines of go to the reservation, sign this treaty, and we won’t kill you. It’s not as if the tribe’s had an option.
They didn’t want to be put on the reservation or have to sign anything.
The BIA will never treat Indians right. They’ll never provide the type of healthcare, education and opportunities you and I had. The reservation, perpetual welfare system functions just as expected: poorly - like all things controlled from the top down by government- and it always will.

Not wanting native’s conquerors to keep them poor and oppressed = racism.

I’m sure you’re content with the way things are running. When it takes 5 months to get power to a native family, just think of all the fed parasites similar to you that get to throw their weight around and act important.

 

[BuzzH]

The idea that treaties, negotiated after powerful colonialists murdered innocent women and children and then burned their villages were ‘negotiated in good faith’ is ridiculous.
It was more along the lines of go to the reservation, sign this treaty, and we won’t kill you. It’s not as if the tribe’s had an option.
They didn’t want to be put on the reservation or have to sign anything.
The BIA will never treat Indians right. They’ll never provide the type of healthcare, education and opportunities you and I had. The reservation, perpetual welfare system functions just as expected: poorly - like all things controlled from the top down by government- and it always will.

Not wanting native’s conquerors to keep them poor and oppressed = racism.

I’m sure you’re content with the way things are running. When it takes 5 months to get power to a native family, just think of all the fed parasites similar to you that get to throw their weight around and act important.

I don't care if the treaty was signed with a gun to one sides head or not...its still a binding contract with the expectation it will be upheld. Exactly what the USSC concluded in regard to the Crow's treaty rights regarding hunting. Would stripping their hunting rights afforded them by the treaty be a good thing? How would that help get power to their homes quicker?

I also don't agree with your broad brush painting of what opportunities are provided to tribal members. Like the rest of society, opportunity is there, even for tribal members...seen it.

 

[MTGomer]

I don't care if the treaty was signed with a gun to one sides head or not...its still a binding contract with the expectation it will be upheld. Exactly what the USSC concluded in regard to the Crow's treaty rights regarding hunting. Would stripping their hunting rights afforded them by the treaty be a good thing? How would that help get power to their homes quicker?

I don’t think I suggested either of the things you’re asking about.
Of course, you can read and you know that.
No surprise the same arrogant, off topic nonsense as you usually respond to anything critical of your precious, infallible federal government is showing up here.
You have made a career out of being part of the problem. Of course you would defend it. You get paid a federal salary, a federal pension, and cannot be fired to be a part of the problem.