Task force $1,950 NR elk tag

[seeth07]

It's not all on the states, it's also on the NR and in some cases the Resident hunters who are more than willing to pay for a lease, pay for more expensive tags, and also pay for expensive guided hunts.

People spend all their time working and chasing $$$$ rather than doing things for themselves. Things like taking the time to scout for a place to hunt. That's created the demand for outfitted hunts, which in turn drives leasing, and puts a price tag on wildlife. The states also capitalize on that demand reflected via license pricing, in particular non resident pricing.

In other words, the states want their slice of the value we place on hunting and wildlife.

I think before anyone throws stones, a look in the mirror is in order. What's happened is largely self induced because money is easier to obtain than the knowledge it takes to hunt DIY. Easier to get a side hustle, work some OT, or skim the market on a good day to pay for an outfitter than it is to figure out how to kill a bull on public land on your own.

Outfitters pushed this latest fee increase in Wyoming. Outfitters don't exist without clients. Outfitters don't pay for leases without clients.

You are totally right that it isn't necessarily the wealthy paying for outfitted hunts. Every single person that I know of in my family/friend circle that has gone out west has gone outfitted or on a lease hunt (drop camp diy, tresspass fee, etc.). No one can believe that I do it without that and go public land diy. We are truly the minority here in the demographic of NR east of the Miss.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It's not all on the states, it's also on the NR and in some cases the Resident hunters who are more than willing to pay for a lease, pay for more expensive tags, and also pay for expensive guided hunts.

People spend all their time working and chasing $$$$ rather than doing things for themselves. Things like taking the time to scout for a place to hunt. That's created the demand for outfitted hunts, which in turn drives leasing, and puts a price tag on wildlife. The states also capitalize on that demand reflected via license pricing, in particular non resident pricing.

Totally agree

In other words, the states want their slice of the value we place on hunting and wildlife.

What happened to the public trust doctrine? Shouldn't the state WY or any other as trustees take a longer term view at a public resource. Shouldn't states act to distribute a resource equitably not just to the wealthy?

Outfitters pushed this latest fee increase in Wyoming. Outfitters don't exist without clients. Outfitters don't pay for leases without clients.

Are there actually reputable outfitters in the west that don't completely book out? Obviously my N=8 or something like that but every outfitter I've ever talked to has a waiting list... often years out. I guess if you only outfit sheep or premium elk unit and there are only a handful of tags...

I have a hard time seeing the outfitter thing as anything but horse pucky.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I think all western states need to think long and hard about this fact, looking at you Colorado and Montana.

If you essentially kick out NR DIY folks in favor of wealthy guided hunters that will have major long term effects.

To my knowledge there is no law that precludes the FS/BLM from conducting hunting leases. States already do this, Colorado has a ton of state land that is leased by private individuals for hunting. Mineral/grazing/ski area leases are exclusive.

The way hunting is going I see that as the next big push. How do you fix de-criminalized corner crossing if you’re the Eshelman’s of the world, work with Mike Lee to get the BLM to lease you that in-holding for hunting.

All stakeholders who care about hunting as a culture, tradition, and value, should be concerned about the turn this has taken - the monetization by private and public interests of a limited and cherished public asset. When it comes to private goods, price is the best moderator of demand and allocator of supply imo. But when it comes to public "goods" I do not believe price should play the same role. The monetization of hunting - both access and animals - is going to kill the tradition for all but the 1% if we are not careful. And it is not just an NR issue, land access limitations (such as a ridiculously ancient approach to corners) affect Rs just as much.

In theory, a $5k elk tag helps me, as it would presumably reduce competition. As in theory do hunting leases & outfitter lock-ups. But I reject all of these changes, as to me the culture/tradition at the intersection of nature and hunting is more important to me than whether I get a tag or not. Being part of a like-minded community that values the non-antler measuring part of this sport is more important to me than getting a tag every year. When the only hunters that are left are the deep pockets, this community dies. There is a reason that while I golf, I won't join a club. The "I've got mine and I prefer to keep the unwashed out" approach of too many successful folks grates on me to no end.

I doubt the trajectory will change, and this saddens me.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

All stakeholders who care about hunting as a culture, tradition, and value, should be concerned about the turn this has taken - the monetization by private and public interests of a limited and cherished public asset. When it comes to private goods, price is the best moderator of demand and allocator of supply imo. But when it comes to public "goods" I do not believe price should play the same role. The monetization of hunting - both access and animals - is going to kill the tradition for all but the 1% if we are not careful. And it is not just an NR issue, land access limitations (such as a ridiculously ancient approach to corners) affect Rs just as much.

Absolutely and that's my point.

There use to be few elk and deer, and therefore extremely limited hunting season. No outfitters, harvests were limited and tag fees were nominal as it was absolutely ridiculous to think elk tags would pay for the F&G departments budget... similar adjusted for inflation to Virginia $40, $400 R/NR elk tags.

As herds grew outfitting sprang up and it became feasible for tags to pay for the management.

Now a business that started as a side hustle for some folks has become a dominate driver of wildlife management, and a nominal fee has become a revenue stream that we are willing to destroy herds and the NA model to maintain.

I agree, I doubt the trajectory will change.

 

[TheTone]

Are there actually reputable outfitters in the west that don't completely book out? Obviously my N=8 or something like that but every outfitter I've ever talked to has a waiting list... often years out. I guess if you only outfit sheep or premium elk unit and there are only a handful of tags...

I have a hard time seeing the outfitter thing as anything but horse pucky.

The general season outfitters I know have zero problem finding clients. In fact they probably turn down more people each year than they take. They don’t outfit anything close to quality and shooting a 120 whitetail or 3 year old bull elk with them is doing great for the areas they hunt. I spoke to one of them last week and he claimed he was getting hammered with calls and emails of people wanting to come hunt the last week of our deer season. Based on that I’m not sure why my state feels a need to protect them with outfitter allocated tags, other than they have a powerful outfitter association that has done a good job of getting them a seat at the political table.

 

[Treeshark]

Never hunted with an outfitter and no plans to do so, but I am not going to feel bad if a price increase makes it easier to get a tag.

I’m a dirty NR in all western states, I’m happy with any scraps that fall to me at this point.

 

[KingOfTagSoup]

So if I'm understanding this the pool of tags would be the same for regular and special? If that's the case, why would I spend so much more for the special? What do I gain?

 

[Tradewind]

Outfitter certainty for clients.

talked to a WY outfitter a week or so ago abt antelope hunting. Said they were booked up to 2025.
I'd say they are doing alright

 

[JLS]

God I hate what hunting has become.

 

[RobertD]

So if I'm understanding this the pool of tags would be the same for regular and special? If that's the case, why would I spend so much more for the special? What do I gain?

The pool favors regular now, even split would have meant more available tags in special. Per my understanding it isn't going to change now, just prices

 

[kwyeewyk]

So if I'm understanding this the pool of tags would be the same for regular and special? If that's the case, why would I spend so much more for the special? What do I gain?

The goal is to drive the special price high enough that fewer DYI hunters will want to spend that much money, and if they would have gotten 50/50 split more tags in the special pool, which = more chance for people planning to hunt with an outfitter who don't care how much the special costs to get a tag with fewer years between drawing.

 

[Big Fin]

As I stated earlier, I hope this does not pass. I hope more hunters understand what has been expressed in these last few pages and what bigger-picture impacts this will have. If this passes, the trend it starts toward eliminating the self-guided non-resident hunter and slanting the table toward the person inclined to use an outfitter will spread to other states as a backdoor way to improve the situation for outfitted clients, and it will do so at the expense of the self-guided person.

When this actually comes up for legislative approval I hope @BuzzH and @JM77 will tell us how we can help. And I hope non-resident hunters understand that there are resident hunters in every state trying to stop these kind of stunts. This is the second or third attempt I am aware of by WYOGA to slant the table further toward the benefit of their clients. As much as I and other non-residents have written to oppose such, the real value in defeating those past proposals has come from the many resident hunters who have opposed those efforts.

 

[Dougfirtree]

God I hate what hunting has become.

I've got to admit that the extreme demand for western hunting is affecting my excitement. I don't think it will stop me, as I need my Rocky Mountain/prairie fix every now and then and I have a couple of hunts that I've been accumulating points for. But, the way things are going, I think I'll probably do less of it. My mind is starting to wander into other interesting hunts where demand is lower, tags cheaper and the hunting-industrial complex less overbearing.

On the bright side, all this crap is pretty much absent from hunting at home. It's pretty chill and old fashioned around here.

 

[WapitiBob]

Hicks has chosen to rationalize this as a way to bring Wyoming’s license prices in line with other western state, rather than the true reason which is to create a de facto outfitter draw. When this hits the legislature, it shouldn’t be hard to flood them with proof that this increase goes above and beyond comparable pricing.

 

[Oak]

As I stated earlier, I hope this does not pass. I hope more hunters understand what has been expressed in these last few pages and what bigger-picture impacts this will have. If this passes, the trend it starts toward eliminating the self-guided non-resident hunter and slanting the table toward the person inclined to use an outfitter will spread to other states as a backdoor way to improve the situation for outfitted clients, and it will do so at the expense of the self-guided person.

I'm fully aware that, given the outsized influence the outfitter lobby had on the Colorado commission's decision on R/NR allocation, creating an outfitter pool of licenses is likely their next play. Especially as we move forward on potentially changing the allocation across the board. I hope my fellow residents are ready to fight against that for our DIY NR friends as much as we have fought to increase the size of our own slice.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I'm fully aware that, given the outsized influence the outfitter lobby had on the Colorado commission's decision on R/NR allocation, creating an outfitter pool of licenses is likely their next play. Especially as we move forward on potentially changing the allocation across the board. I hope my fellow residents are ready to fight against that for our DIY NR friends as much as we have fought to increase the size of our own slice.

Human nature says no way in hell. Appreciate any support from CO residents that DIY NR can get though. I know in the tag allocation surveys they had I tried to be impartial about CO giving a bigger chunk of tags to NR like me than is warranted. I hunted on a CO tag last year that took 6 points for NR and I'm pretty sure it took just as many for R. That's not reasonable.

 

[88man]

I only DIY Hunt, however the stereo type present here that all outfitters are bad is so odd to me and certainly has more at play than said. Everything hunting price wise is outta control.
Not My costs but I'm guessing pretty close for the average Youtube Hunt producer or wanna be
$75,000 truck
$25,000 UTV
$40,000 camper
$ 4.000 Binos,spotter
$ 5,000 weapon
$ 3,000 clothing systems
$ 7,000 gear/gadgets
A $1000 or $2000 for a tag seems pretty cheap to me.

 

[88man]

The goal is to drive the special price high enough that fewer DYI hunters will want to spend that much money, and if they would have gotten 50/50 split more tags in the special pool, which = more chance for people planning to hunt with an outfitter who don't care how much the special costs to get a tag with fewer years between drawing.

I don't see this when I'm afield hunting. I see tons of high end optics/gear/clothing/tents/utvs/Trucks/guns>> etc.
who's mixing the magic potion that we are supposed to drink

 

[VikingsGuy]

I only DIY Hunt, however the stereo type present here that all outfitters are bad is so odd to me and certainly has more at play than said. Everything hunting price wise is outta control.
Not My costs but I'm guessing pretty close for the average Youtube Hunt producer or wanna be
$75,000 truck
$25,000 UTV
$40,000 camper
$ 4.000 Binos,spotter
$ 5,000 weapon
$ 3,000 clothing systems
$ 7,000 gear/gadgets
A $1000 or $2000 for a tag seems pretty cheap to me.

I guess I am not doing it right . . .

my truck is my daily vehicle so its purchase price has nothing to do with hunting costs
no utv
no $40k camper but do have $2k canvas wall tent amortized across a dozen trips - less than $100 per animal
$1k binos + amortized across a dozen trips - less than $75 per animal
$1.5k weapon + scope amortized across a dozen trips - less than $100 per animal
$500 for clothing not otherwise used in day-to-day life
gas + food - variable by trip length & location
$1k-$2k tag - in one sense a bargain, in another sense a price that leads to further monetization of a share public resource and that risks creating a class-based hunting culture.

Way cheaper than a trip to Disney land . . .

 

[JLS]

I only DIY Hunt, however the stereo type present here that all outfitters are bad is so odd to me and certainly has more at play than said. Everything hunting price wise is outta control.
Not My costs but I'm guessing pretty close for the average Youtube Hunt producer or wanna be
$75,000 truck
$25,000 UTV
$40,000 camper
$ 4.000 Binos,spotter
$ 5,000 weapon
$ 3,000 clothing systems
$ 7,000 gear/gadgets
A $1000 or $2000 for a tag seems pretty cheap to me.

Complete red herring.