Stand for the Anthem

[Doublecluck]

First, a far more relevant "honest question" for this particular topic is, "Let's say you are a hard working family man driving home one night in any one of a number of American suburbs, would you rather be black pulled over by a white cop or white pulled over by a black cop?" What do you think goes through a black man's mind and how different is it than what goes through your mind when you get pulled over.

Second, I can't believe we are playing the "love it or leave it" card -- how about, "if you love it try to make it better for all its citizens, and if you don't want to make it better for all its citizens maybe you should leave it".

Third, as said before, I will stand for the flag until they bury me, but to me the flag flies proud so that folks including Colorado Boy can challenge the status quo in any peaceful manner they choose.

Rich football players disrespecting the very symbol that has given them the rights and freedoms they are excercising is changing nothing. I agree with you , but the kappernicks of the world aren’t going to change the hood..

 

[Rancho Loco]

Rich football players disrespecting the very symbol that has given them the rights and freedoms they are excercising is changing nothing. I agree with you , but the kappernicks of the world aren’t going to change the hood..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was our Bill of Rights that gave us the rights and freedoms.

And the day any elected official tells me or any other citizen they work for how to exercise our rights is the day I tell that puke to FO.

 

[Rancho Loco]

Not mentioned, when that elected official is a draft dodging adulterous con man who wouldn't be able to pass the security check to mow the lawn at the White House, let alone get in the door if he hadn't been elected.

 

[Big Fin]

Another thread having nothing to do with hunting. Not that it matters, but I will always stand for the anthem and would never use that as a way to make my message.

That said, for a group of people so concerned about infringement of the 2nd Amendment, as we should be, I am shaking my head at some of the responses here that advocate for/support infringement of the 1st Amendment.

My left of center friends come unglued when a Chuck Schumer statement incites me to send more money to 2A causes. Given the level of ignorant, bigotted, anti-American, anti-Freedom policies/statements coming out of the White House, it looks like a good time to send more money to 1A advocates.

Carry on....I'm sure this thread will solve a lot of problems and change a lot of minds.

 

[fwagner]

Not mentioned, when that elected official is a draft dodging adulterous con man who wouldn't be able to pass the security check to mow the lawn at the White House, let alone get in the door if he hadn't been elected.

Don't forget he mocked a POW and the father of a fallen solider and pleaded to have a foreign enemy interfere in our election....

 

[mtmuley]

Another thread having nothing to do with hunting. Not that it matters, but I will always stand for the anthem and would never use that as a way to make my message.

That said, for a group of people so concerned about infringement of the 2nd Amendment, as we should be, I am shaking my head at some of the responses here that advocate for/support infringement of the 1st Amendment.

My left of center friends come unglued when a Chuck Schumer statement incites me to send more money to 2A causes. Given the level of ignorant, bigotted, anti-American, anti-Freedom policies/statements coming out of the White House, it looks like a good time to send more money to 1A advocates.

Carry on....I'm sure this thread will solve a lot of problems and change a lot of minds.

Sorry Randy. Figured a thread that was basically a sports issue belonged in the Sports forum. mtmuley

 

[Northwoods Labs]

I will always stand for the anthem, but if one chooses not to then that is their right. What I find funny about the whole NFL thing is that only a few guys were kneeling, then Trump opens his big mouth and everyone starts talking about kneeling. It came to be more about protesting Trump than the original issue. Also, I live in a poor community near a reservation and I can think of all sorts of ways these NFL guys could make a real difference, rather than kneeling during the anthem at a game

 

[Colorado kid]

I encourage you to stick around for the hunting discussions. I typically avoid these debates because nothing good really ever comes of them. In a couple months the forum will once again be dominated by hunting content.

Thanks man!! Upon further contemplation, I don't intend on allowing a few misguided people to chase me off what is a very valuable forum. Much appreciated LCH

 

[Colorado kid]

I have a honest question for you? Let’s say for a moment you yourself are walking down the street in Los Angeles , Boston, Detroit, etc. at 11 at night. You look back and see three black guys walking behind you. What goes thru your mind? Now same secenario except when you look back there are three white guys.. what goes thru your mind? Honest answer? Is America responsible for the way american culture views the black community? or is the black community responsible for the way America views it?


For me and my family we stand, I truly believe that America and what it stands for, in the context of history and the world, is the best place for all people of every race, religion, etc. I have seen with my own eyes, people that have worked for me come from Guatemala, get citizenship , raise families, buy houses, live amazing lives, lives they would have never lived where they came from. America is far from perfect, but in the context of history it is perfect. If you are not proud enough of that to stand for this countries anthem... then leave...go cowboys...

I totally understand your question and can ABSOLUTELY see both sides of that particular issue. I grew up around black folks. My whole life as been spent in and around the black community. I HONESTLY wouldn't see a difference. But for someone who hasn't been or isn't used to being in black neighborhoods or in those communities....i can see how their reaction would be completely different. And I honestly think that ALL of us...blacks, whites and others should take responsibility for that stigma.

 

[mtmuley]

Thanks man!! Upon further contemplation, I don't intend on allowing a few misguided people to chase me off what is a very valuable forum. Much appreciated LCH

I realized when I posted this it was not about hunting. Hence the post in a non-huntilng area of the site. If all that you are looking for is hunting info, it's pretty easy to by-pass the threads that aren't, and this isn't the only one. Sorry you thought folks were out to chase you off. I seriously doubt that was anybody intention. mtmuley

 

[Colorado kid]

Requiring employees to stand... is a requirement of employment. Don't like it? Find a football team that values crapping on the million + sworn law enforcement personnel for the 12 individual officers.

Hmm, speak of employment statistics... Not bad.

Our flag is not a cloth catching wind.

So will the next step be to allow employers to dictate what religion their employees need to be loyal to? Where does it stop?

 

[Colorado kid]

Rich football players disrespecting the very symbol that has given them the rights and freedoms they are excercising is changing nothing. I agree with you , but the kappernicks of the world aren’t going to change the hood..

Do you really think it's about "changing the hood"?

 

[bobbydean]

There is freedom of religion. There is not a freedom to insult your employer. I take that back. There is a freedom. I quit!

 

[Sytes]

So will the next step be to allow employers to dictate what religion their employees need to be loyal to? Where does it stop?

This is about, "Freedom of Speech".

While at work as a salesperson of widgets, you declare via your, "freedom of speech" that your competitor's widgets are better quality than your employer's to prospective buyers. Your employer loses business due to your exercised use of, "freedom of speech"...
You are saying your employer must accept your "freedom of speech". May we agree to disagree...

 

[Schaaf]

This is about, "Freedom of Speech".

While at work as a salesperson of widgets, you declare via your, "freedom of speech" that your competitor's widgets are better quality than your employer's to prospective buyers. Your employer loses business due to your exercised use of, "freedom of speech"...
You are saying your employer must accept your "freedom of speech". May we agree to disagree...

I don’t think Colorado Kids comparison is as far fetched as you think it is. Wonder if the business would take a hit if say in Lincoln, Montana the mechanic was a practicing Muslim. Does the owner have the right to demand that all employees be Protestant? They’re both freedoms protected by our Bill of Rights.

Full disclosure, I have stood and will continue to stand for every anthem.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I don’t think Colorado Kids comparison is as far fetched as you think it is. Wonder if the business would take a hit if say in Lincoln, Montana the mechanic was a practicing Muslim. Does the owner have the right to demand that all employees be Protestant? They’re both freedoms protected by our Bill of Rights.

Full disclosure, I have stood and will continue to stand for every anthem.

Let's not mix up constitutional 1st amendment freedoms of speech and religion with statutory rules. The constitution only limits what the Government can do, and places no limitations on what individuals or companies can do to one another, no matter how obnoxious, oppressive or offensive. Then in specific cases the federal, state and local governments have passed a patchwork of widely varying, inconsistent and sometimes over lapping statutory prohibitions on the actions of individuals or companies.

For example, it is perfectly legal for a company to fire the widget salesperson for saying that his employer's widgets suck, but it is illegal for the company to fire the salesperson for telling others that the wages/working conditions at this company suck. And this distinction has absolutely nothing to do with freedom of speech, they are laws protecting labor union formation.

So, the NFL players taking a knee has absolutely nothing to do with our constitutional freedom of speech. Our constitution only protects us from government action, and and even then only in enumerated instances (except for the "penumbra" of course). It is not the constitution that prevent companies from refusing to hiring women - mysogyny is entirely constitutional (and also entirely morally repugnant) - it it Title VII of the Civil Rights Act that does this.

I know this distinction may seem a bit pedantic, but for a democracy to work folks need to know how it works - what rights are preserved by the constitution and what rights are subject to legislative whim is an important distinction to this important end.

 

[bobbydean]

I have visited this thread too many times. It is an emotional issue with me.

Colorado Kid has just as much emotion with a contrary outlook.

I think his stance is great for the forum.

He backs up his discussions well and thinks in a clear logical manner.

I tend to get too emotional and know it.

I do not agree but respect the way he presents his arguments.

A heartfelt, welcome to the site.

 

[Schaaf]

Let's not mix up constitutional 1st amendment freedoms of speech and religion with statutory rules. The constitution only limits what the Government can do, and places no limitations on what individuals or companies can do to one another, no matter how obnoxious, oppressive or offensive. Then in specific cases the federal, state and local governments have passed a patchwork of widely varying, inconsistent and sometimes over lapping statutory prohibitions on the actions of individuals or companies.

For example, it is perfectly legal for a company to fire the widget salesperson for saying that his employer's widgets suck, but it is illegal for the company to fire the salesperson for telling others that the wages/working conditions at this company suck. And this distinction has absolutely nothing to do with freedom of speech, they are laws protecting labor union formation.

So, the NFL players taking a knee has absolutely nothing to do with our constitutional freedom of speech. Our constitution only protects us from government action, and and even then only in enumerated instances (except for the "penumbra" of course). It is not the constitution that prevent companies from refusing to hiring women - mysogyny is entirely constitutional (and also entirely morally repugnant) - it it Title VII of the Civil Rights Act that does this.

I know this distinction may seem a bit pedantic, but for a democracy to work folks need to know how it works - what rights are preserved by the constitution and what rights are subject to legislative whim is an important distinction to this important end.

Correct. Thank you for the reminder. Where do you draw the line on government action? Would the POTUS proclaiming “Fire those SOBs” be unconstitutional?

 

[Doublecluck]

I totally understand your question and can ABSOLUTELY see both sides of that particular issue. I grew up around black folks. My whole life as been spent in and around the black community. I HONESTLY wouldn't see a difference. But for someone who hasn't been or isn't used to being in black neighborhoods or in those communities....i can see how their reaction would be completely different. And I honestly think that ALL of us...blacks, whites and others should take responsibility for that stigma.

Ya well I grew up in a largely black and Hispanic community, got shot at by a car full of blacks, had a bullet go thru the headrest in front of me.. Got robbed at gunpoint by a young black male, got jumped by 4-5 Hispanics. In my neighborhoodhood if you are any color and you got some brothers or homies walking behind you at 11 at night that you don’t know, your a fool if you don’t watch your six. That’s reality my friend, I don’t imagine the cops in that community look at it any different. All the pc in the world isn’t going to change life experience. Also I don’t expect anybody who grew up in in Wyoming or North Dakota to understand it. I can’t tell you what goes thru a young black mans head when he gets pulled over any more than I can tell you what’s going thru the cops head that is pulling him over. But this I know, as long as there is a segment of the community that behaves like animals, there will be a segment of the people who police them that behave like animals. The police in any community are just a representation of the people from that community.

I am going to go out on a limb here , but my guess is that if kappernick and the likes can come up with a way to get young black males to stop shooting each other, they might stop getting shot by the police as well. If he’s got a way to bring jobs to black communities, get black fathers to raise their children, than I am all ears. Until then he is just a disrespectful punk to the country and flag I hold dear. The whole thing is misguided. He might have the right, and I respect that, but I have the right not to watch. And my guess is there are quite a few Americans just like me.

I don’t take any responsibility for the stigma, I am not a democrat, a member of the media, or a Hollywood producer.

 

[Sytes]

Vikingsguy, hense the quotes within my post based on some individuals *perception these NFL employees are protected to express themselves due to the misguided understanding of the first amendment. The subsequent shared difference between an employer (widget) and government.

Schaaf, no. The first amendment bars laws designed to curtail ANY American's right to free speech.

Specific to your query and from a liberal leaning media outlet to reduce the partisan side of debate: http://thehill.com/opinion/white-ho...what-he-wants-he-has-the-right-to-free-speech

Edit to clarify...

Trump's quote;

“Wouldn’t you love to see one of these NFL owners, when somebody disrespects our flag, to say, ‘Get that son of a b---h off the field right now?’”

Had he signed an Executive Order that directed X team to terminate the employment of a player then that would be ludicrous and I would imagine it would violate some law... What that would be, maybe others would know as the First Amendment applies to the Legislative Branch, "Congress shall make no law..." Has SCOTUS ruled "Congress" as Government in general to cover all?

These conversations are enjoyable.