So what happened to the "let's bash landowners thread"?

[Tom]

Where's WANNABUYA200? He can tell us how to better ourselves as sportsman by writing checks. Meanwhile, I'll be dropping loafs in front of my favorite landowner's driveways..

Greenhorn, get over it, its fair chase. What, you want to start better fair chase, more better fair chase, best fair chase, and bestest fair chase?

I think he meant better as in have more opportunity, but I hate to speak for someone else.

 

[BuzzH]

Tom,

How do exclusive leases make more opportunity for public hunting?

This should be good....

Also, how do guaranteed outfitter licenses that cost 2-3 times (and that FORCE you to hire an outfitter) more than the same license through the state draw promote more opportunity for a hunter of average means?

This should be good...

Oh, and to whoever the pussy was that nuked the first thread...I give Greenhorn permission to shit in your driveway too.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Tom, I've seen the program Texas Trophy Hunters.. where they have the maimed combat vetrans and dying children shooting deer from a box blind while they feed under the cornflinger in some high fenced preserve...

It's a disgraceful way to for an organization to try and promote the type of "hunting" so common in Texas.

Leasing doesn't promote youth hunting unless daddy's rich or you're putting your lease on the map through a TV program.

 

[Nemont]

I think its a lot safer to take youth to a lease, unless the public hunt is specifically for youth. The lease can be low pressure hunting, where they can learn. It can be controlled numbers of hunters, where its safer for youth to be walking about, etc. We have some youth only public hunts here, those are good, if a state has those. What other states have those?

Tom,
I would hope a lease is low pressure, that is the point of a lease. A lease also is also to keep other people from hunting that land, other people includes youth. Do you suppose any youth can just walk on a lease to enjoy a "low pressure" hunt? Or do they need connections, relatives and/or money from their parents to enjoy hunting on leased lands.

Have you read about the declining number of hunters, the difficulty recruiting new hunters to the sport? Why do you think that is? I still live in an area where my kids can hunt without forking over money, they can still hunt in "low pressure" areas and yet opportunity is being taken away every year by leasing. My son will start his hunting when he turns 12 in February he will have way less opportunity then I did at the same age. That is just a fact, he may decide that he is sick of fighting for access and just quit, I hope not but he may and then there is one less hunter.

The safety thing is a red herring as one has to be safe regardless of where one is hunting.

I guess that Iowa world record whitetail was shot during a youth only muzzleloader season there.

And did you read that the kid was on Private land? Do you believe any kid off the street would have had the same opportunity or that the young Mr. Lovstuen had to have a "special" arrangement with the landowner?

There's more than one way to solve a problem, usually. Can Obama solve any problems, that's the question?

Try to stay on topic here this has nothing to do with Obama. If I wanted to blame a president then I would be blaming Bush because more leasing has come into our area in the last 8 years then ever before. I don't believe GWB is responsible for this but I guess I could change my mind.

I know it is difficult for you to understand as a Texan but leasing hunting rights and hunting over a corn flinger is not the only way to manage land and game herds.


Nemont

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

How does disrespecting landowners make more opportunity for public hunting?

This should be good....

 

[IDHunters]

So what happened to the thread?

 

[Tom]

Tom,

How do exclusive leases make more opportunity for public hunting?

This should be good....

Also, how do guaranteed outfitter licenses that cost 2-3 times (and that FORCE you to hire an outfitter) more than the same license through the state draw promote more opportunity for a hunter of average means?

This should be good...

Oh, and to whoever the pussy was that nuked the first thread...I give Greenhorn permission to shit in your driveway too.

"How do exclusive leases make more opportunity for public hunting?"

The block management program is an example lease, exclusively for the public hunter and promotes hunting, provided the public follows the rules set up by the state and the landowners. If the public hunter, doesn't follow the rules, he is exclusively kicked off the property, fined, or whatever the consequences, e.g. shitting in the driveway, that ought to be some kind of crime, I would think, in most states, if done in broad daylight or in front of headlights at night, etc.

"Also, how do guaranteed outfitter licenses that cost 2-3 times (and that FORCE you to hire an outfitter) more than the same license through the state draw promote more opportunity for a hunter of average means?"

Its been to the Supreme Court, Montana can charge any out of stater, whatever they want, to support their welfare local public hunter's cheap liscenses to hunt on the federal land that is supposed to belong to us all.

 

[BuzzH]

BHR,

Oh, I see, so its disrespectful to demand transparency in a landowner profiteering from a public owned resource...

Thats what you call "disrespecting"?

Sweet.

 

[BuzzH]

Tom,

You didnt mention anything in your first post about the BM program or leasing of land for public hunting.

Also, you didnt answer the second question, you rambled about the legality of the state charging NR's a higher fee. That wasnt the question.

 

[BigHornRam]

BHR,

Oh, I see, so its disrespectful to demand transparency in a landowner profiteering from a public owned resource...

Thats what you call "disrespecting"?

Sweet.

If i said "It's a fact, I bet 90% of all black people are lazy deadbeats" that would be disrespectful, as well as racist, ignorant, bigoted and stupid.

If i said "It's a fact, I bet 90% of all government workers are lazy deadbeats that #*^@#* off on the computer all day while supposedly working" that would be ignorant and disrespectful.

If I said "It's a fact, I bet 90% of all landowners don't pay their taxes on income recieved from leasing out their land blah blah blah" that would be.........get my point?

 

[Tom]

Tom,

You didnt mention anything in your first post about the BM program or leasing of land for public hunting.

Also, you didnt answer the second question, you rambled about the legality of the state charging NR's a higher fee. That wasnt the question.

You didn't ask me the question until after my first post. I thought of it as an answer to your question.

The second question, my point, with the answer that came to mind, was that the high tag fees support the locals cheap public hunting. Kind of like the auctions for the multi thousand dollar tags generates money for the local game and fish support.

I didn't address the required outfitter part of the question. I don't know how different states justified that, we don't have that here, except in that landowner permission is required. Here, the way that supports public hunting on private land, is that the landowner is willing to let Joe Public on his/her land to hunt some animal, because there is a guide there, that the landowner trusts to make sure his property is respected. Its mostly the guides and outfitters responsibility here to protect the landowner and help the hunter get a animal. That's one justification for requiring guides/outfitters.

Does AK say, as another example, its to protect the hunter? e.g. with grizzlies and high mountain dall sheep? Also, to protect the AK state people from having so much trouble saving unguided people going after grizzly and dall sheep.

What was WY's justification for the wilderness law when it was passed?

 

[BuzzH]

BHR,

Tell me...give your honest opinion...what percentage of landowners that demand money from hunters for hunting MY PUBLIC WILDLIFE on their property report that income to the state and federal tax system?

5%?
10%?

Do you think they should follow the law like everyone else...or should they get yet another subsidy and be granted special consideration because they own land?

 

[BuzzH]

Tom,

AK rules are the product of a complacent residency and an out-of-control guiding and outfitting industry.

WY's rules are the same thing...a product of complacency of the residents combined with another out-of-control outfitting industry.

Results: More and more limits put on NR hunting, tiered hunting fees (WY in particular), Wilderness guide laws, guides needed for certain species, etc. etc. etc.

All detrimental to the sport and prohibitive to all but the most wealthy hunters.

Lets not even start on how outfitters have increased leasing of private, influenced game management, etc. all for the benefit of THEM and THEIR clients while giving no consideration to the average DIY hunter or the very PUBLIC wildlife they profit from.

On the positive side, the tables are turning, largely because of sites like this and that the average guy has been forced to become more informed and more involved.

The days of landowners and outfitters rail-roading the average hunter are OVER...and rightfully so.

 

[Bambistew]

I've considered giving up hunting here in MD all together and still may. A few years ago I would have never though I would say that, but I just can’t deal with the hassles anymore. Having fun shouldn’t be this much trouble or that big of a headach. It’s nearly impossible to find a place to hunt especially if you don't have a connection. Most land owners are fed up with asswhipe hunters and I can't blame them, knocking on a door and asking to hunt puts up automatic red flags of misconduct in the past. There is a stereo type for a reason, most of the hunters I talk to out here are freaking luny toons when it comes to hunting, its all about killing and QDM and nothing about hunting and the experience...

Leases and hunt clubs are everywhere and most cost a small fortune to buy in. I saw 25 acres lease for $10k earlier this fall! I'd rather spend week hunting in Montana or Colorado for the same price and have a nice experience. Hunting here is hardly a quality hunting experience. Its more about who has the most money to afford the best places.

I sincerely hope that you guys in MT are able to curb the pimping of your wildlife before it turns into the crap we have here. Lucky for you there is lots of public land but there is only so much to go around. Out here I'm half afraid to even hunt public. All the tards that can't afford a lease pound the crap out what little public land we have. The "if its brown its down" mentality runs rampant. Disregard for safety, littering, destruction of public property, etc etc... The more I hunt public the more disgusted I get, I hunted 2 times this year, and doubt I'll ever hunt public again.

I see very few kids out hunting, I'm guessing because dad can't afford two shares in a hunt club? Or the rules of their club state they can't bring on friends, etc. I wouldn't even think about taking my kid hunting on public land, I'm scared for my own safety as it is.

My family has a fair amount of land in MT, in 3 small ranches. The hunting is hit or miss but can be good at times for elk/deer/antelope and birds. They pretty much let anyone on to hunt unless they know of a reputation that they have, or if they screw up.

The family is more interested in hunters killing off the animals than they are about harboring them for their own gain. The only gripe any of them have, and I feel the same way… hunters wanting everything for free. Fixing fences ripped up by elk and deer costs money and takes time. Can’t say as I’ve ever heard a hunter offer his labor or a dime to help fix the problems “their” animals caused. I would think hunters would feel some level of responsibility for those animals that are supposedly thiers? All the private I hunted as a kid, in some time or another every year I helped out the owner, be it working cows, helping with haying, feeding in the winter, what ever and never asked for anything in return or was ever paid. My ‘payment’ was getting to hunt on their place when I knocked on thier door and we were all happy in the end.

I think a lot of the problems we have revolve around the selfish mentality all humans have. Hunters have to be one of the worst for selfishness, I know I find myself being that way and in the last few years have really tried to make it not so much about ‘me’ and more about everyone else I encounter.

With the QDM shit, the ‘inch war’, leases, baiting, etc hunting is hardly hunting, its more of a completive sport and not one I really want to be apart of anymore.

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

Cronic tax cheats will sooner or later get caught as well they should. I'm sure some don't report the income. I'd say most do. Everyone that gets a payment from BMP certainly do claim it on their taxes.

My solution for this issue would be....

1: Get rid of the higher priced guareenteed outfitter tags in Montana.

2: Have the hunters purchase a $15 per day (same amount as the daily payment to the landowners from the BMP I believe) access coupon. The landowner collects them from the hunters and redeems them from FWP at the end of the year.

3: Paper trail for tax collection purposes.

4: All landowners can enter BMP program, not just the few the FWP can afford to fund.

5: Good management practices by landowners will encourage better participation from hunters over the long run.

6: Landowners with bad management practices will get poor participation over the long run

What do you think? Anything you might want to add to this idea?

 

[BigHornRam]

Good prospective from BOTH sides of the fence Bambi.

 

[BuzzH]

BHR,

I'm sure most dont report that income...if you want to live in fantasyland...thats your choice.

I believe that if there were better accounting of those money transfers, it may not be as lucrative for a landowner to charge access fees. If they do, they should be taxed on it at the very least, and I believe a vast majority never claim it.

Your other idea, I'm not opposed to it. I dont agree fully with the $15 a day coupons and I also feel that the landowner should still have to enroll in the BM program. There needs to be over-sight in the program. I also think that there would be problems with hunters "forgetting" to put payment coupons in drop boxes, etc.

Wyomings plan addresses that with the landowners receiving a payment from the G&F for initial access, then if an animal is taken on DEEDED ground you sign and drop off an attachment from your license that the landowner can redeem for an additional $15 or whatever it is. So, there is insentive for the LO to provide a good opportunity, I dont have to pay anything additional unless I harvest an animal on deeded ground, and I'm assured access...and the landowner is also assured an initial payment.

I think thats a more fair way myself.

 

[IDHunters]

Buzz what basis do you have for your assumption that most income is not reported?

Any outfitter would send a 1099 for the lease payment as it is a business expense, as would the FWP.

Oh, and by the way, I would rather knock on a door than pay a lease. I was offered deer hunting rights on a 5000 ac ranch a few years back if I would put up a gate and pay the owner $1000. I declined. Prior to that it was open to anyone and the owner got fed up with litter, road hunting, "porcupine cars" (a car with so many guns sticking out the windows it looks like a porcupine) etc. Since I didn 't take the deal he turned it into a "pay per view" charging 2500 a week/person. Hard to blame him.

 

[Bambistew]

I thought about something like a 'trophy fee' paid to the LO by the hunter or who ever. That way the LO gets paid for the animals he has on his place, and also has an incentive to allow as much hunting as he can. By maximizing his profit they would likely figure out that there is a happy medium of total hunters allowed and number of animals killed. To much pressure, fewer animals killed, and vise versa.

Oh and ban hunting leases and outfitting.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Not sure about the coupon or day-use fee. Before you know it, there'll be different prices for does, cows, bucks, bulls, points, scores, spreads, then some fences and corn flingers will show up and I'll be watching a program on TV with some cripple sitting in a box blind shooting animals on that week's edition of Montana Trophy Hunters..

I've given Wyoming landowners coupons for animals I took on public lands... but those were the nice ones. I left steaming piles in the jerk's driveways..