Sigh-ting in issues

[David58]

[sigh]
Ruger M77, 30-06, with Leupold scope. I am thinking that I am shooting too fast, but I'll ask the question anywho.

Sighting in at 100, after moving the scope for better eye relief. I believe I have zero pretty well, then move to 200. Then, well, damn!

Groups disappear. I mean, all over the map. And, I know I ain't the world's best shot, but I can shoot pretty well. With the new glass on my rifle, I know what I can do - sub MOA at 200 a month ago, before changing eye relief and learning how to readjust the dial to allow more depression. Again, all over the doggone map.

I think I am shooting with the barrel too hot. Shots did appear to string up and left the last two strings of three. That, and maybe copper fouling, are all I can figure.

Any suggestions? This morning at the range danged near ruined my day, and elk season is only four weekends away.

David
NM

 

[RaiderRich]

I usually shoot pretty slow when sighting in. I always take 2 rifles to the shooting range when sighting in even if one is dead on. That forces me to let one rifle cool while I shoot the other. Using this method I generally shoot about 5 rounds through each every 30 minutes or so. I am taking my 308 to the range tomorrow to see how it shoots as it may be a backup to primary rifle for deer season, which is ready to go. I will take either a 243 or 7mm-08 to the range just for kicks even though neither is going hunting this season just so I can give the 308 a break between groups.

You seemed to indicate 100 yard groups fine but more spread at 200. Was it like 1 MOA at 100 then 6" groups at 200? Under normal circumstances a 1" group at 100 might relate to a 2"+ group at 200. Are you shooting factory or handloads? While generally 30-06 should not have this issue if you are shooting a heavy bullet with average powder loads you might start to see bullets begin to wobble a little more as they slow down. Have you tried different loads? I have found every rifle I own likes a different brand/load than another, even in the same caliber. I have had the issue as well with excessive group spread past 100. Often a different load will shoot better at 200 than the other even though they both shoot great at 100.

Also make sure the scope is torqued correctly and that it is not touching the barrel at all on the objective end.

Good luck!

 

[2ski]

As someone with a .270 M77, I think it's known as a gun that doesn't hold tight groups. I know mine doesn't like 150 gr bullets but does better with 140, sometimes 130 gr bullets. It's very picky.

 

[CB1]

I had an issue similar with the scope. It wouldn’t stay zeroed for more than a couple shots. Finally sent it back to Vortex and they fixed it. Have not shot it since but hopefully it’s fixed.

 

[44hunter45]

Check the torque on your rings again. You changed your eye relief, are you using the same cheek weld? Is it consistent?
I assume you are using the same ammo.

All things being un-changed, the reason has to be something you did change.

 

[std7mag]

As others have said, check the torque on your rings.
Also do insure your resting the rifle on the stock, not the barrel. Hey, i've seen it too many times!

2ski,
As far as the Ruger 77 not being an accurate rifle, i'd say your doing something wrong, somewhere.
I own two. One in 257 Roberts, and one in 280 Rem.
Both will hold under an inch at 100 yards.
2.5" at 300 yards.

 

[pabearhunter]

Put the rifle in a gun vise and make sure it is the rifle and NOT you. To start with.

 

[David58]

I usually shoot pretty slow when sighting in. I always take 2 rifles to the shooting range when sighting in even if one is dead on. That forces me to let one rifle cool while I shoot the other. Using this method I generally shoot about 5 rounds through each every 30 minutes or so. I am taking my 308 to the range tomorrow to see how it shoots as it may be a backup to primary rifle for deer season, which is ready to go. I will take either a 243 or 7mm-08 to the range just for kicks even though neither is going hunting this season just so I can give the 308 a break between groups.

You seemed to indicate 100 yard groups fine but more spread at 200. Was it like 1 MOA at 100 then 6" groups at 200? Under normal circumstances a 1" group at 100 might relate to a 2"+ group at 200. Are you shooting factory or handloads? While generally 30-06 should not have this issue if you are shooting a heavy bullet with average powder loads you might start to see bullets begin to wobble a little more as they slow down. Have you tried different loads? I have found every rifle I own likes a different brand/load than another, even in the same caliber. I have had the issue as well with excessive group spread past 100. Often a different load will shoot better at 200 than the other even though they both shoot great at 100.

Also make sure the scope is torqued correctly and that it is not touching the barrel at all on the objective end.

Good luck!

Scope is solid, everything torqued to spec. Looking at your rate of firing, I am shooting far more rounds than you in that time span. I am going to see if I am dealing with copper fouling when I clean the rifle today, just to eliminate any influence there. Then when I head to the range I will put myself on a timer and not shoot any faster than one shot every 6 or 7 minutes, or whatever it takes to have a cool barrel for each shot. I'll tote my .223 out to plink with in between - having a second gun is a good idea, will keep my hands busy.

 

[std7mag]

I understand the wanting to clean, really i do.

But...

I've cleaned my Rugers of all the copper before. Groups opened up.
Took about 20 rounds before they tightened up again.
Some barrels just like some copper in them.
Don't know any other way to explain it.
Now i just clean the carbon, leave the copper.

 

[std7mag]

Put the rifle in a gun vise and make sure it is the rifle and NOT you. To start with.

I'd let someone else shoot it.
If same results, then i'd look harder at the rifle.

Shooting in a gun vice, or lead sled has proven to not show best results.

 

[David58]

I understand the wanting to clean, really i do.
But...

I've cleaned my Rugers of all the copper before. Groups opened up.
Took about 20 rounds before they tightened up again.
Some barrels just like some copper in them.
Don't know any other way to explain it.
Now i just clean the carbon, leave the copper.

No evidence of copper. Bore is shiny clean, so it appears ready to shoot with no powder fouling left.

I suspect I shoot too fast, and the bbl don't like it. Solid sandbag front stock and buttstock rests, good cheek weld, eye relief good...just need to slow down. Benefit is that I can get my AR sighted in a bit better in between shots.

 

[BZNHNTR]

Did you change anything on your scope between 100 and 200? Elevation dial, parallax, zoom? I had an elevation dial cause issues once similar to what you describe, MOA at 200 then 300 totally fell apart. After much frustration and changing scopes realized with testing on another rifle that something was hanging up in the dial.

 

[howl]

I've heard from a few different users that their 30/06 do that. The claim is the cartridge somehow gets squirrelly past 200 yards. I don't believe it.

A different bullet weight and jacket material might stabilize better from that particular barrel, though.

I think you're on the right track with the deep clean. Fouling lays up in layers. Alternate carbon and copper solvents.

The above comment on magnification change showing errors is a fair possibility. My wife has a sentimental attachment to a scope that does that. Early variables were known for it. It holds if you don't zoom.

Don't tell her I think using it is daft.

What does "readjust the dial to allow more depression." mean? Which Leupold is this?

 

[David58]

[sigh]

Thought it was going well this morning, but it wasn't long before I had no effing idea what was happening. Huge deviations in elevation, and in windage. On a calm, cool morning, and the barrel never was hot to the touch.

I wonder if I have the rings tightened funky on the scope.

I took my AR15 to work on sighting it in while I was waiting on my M77 to cool, and I was able to bring it in pretty danged well plinking away. And I do have an inkling how to shoot - I had solid rests front and back, understand the press of the trigger, and dangit this scope is magnificent.

I wish it were me, but am pretty sure I am not the issue.

Starting to panic, hunt is November 6, and I am running low on my 180 gr ammo, tho I have a decent amount of 165 grain.

Thinking about putting a new scope on my Savage 99, since I have plenty of .308 ammo. The 4X scope with two chips in the ocular likely is not enough for my old eyeballs.

I have never shot my M77 very well, but had up till now blamed me, not the rifle and/or scope. Now I am wondering...

 

[SilverDollars]

Howdy. I had a similar issue with my Ruger M77. I had the local gunsmith adjust the trigger pull from 7+ lbs to little under 2 lbs. It helped, but it still shot about 1.5-2.0 MOA, so it went on down the road.

 

[David58]

Still learning on this one. With my muzzle loaders, we would bed the whole length of the barrel. That apparently isn't the preferred embodiment with a rifle like my M77. Unfortunately, the dollar bill trick fails - the stock is in contact with the barrel. My mind and my mouth are cussin' right now, but at least the fingers are using more polite language.

Not sure of my next step. Move the scope to my Savage 99? New rifle? Time is short, will have to address this somehow next week. This work gig has its benefits (paycheck) but severely cramps my time....

 

[Alpine01]

[sigh]

Thought it was going well this morning, but it wasn't long before I had no effing idea what was happening. Huge deviations in elevation, and in windage. On a calm, cool morning, and the barrel never was hot to the touch.

I wonder if I have the rings tightened funky on the scope.

I took my AR15 to work on sighting it in while I was waiting on my M77 to cool, and I was able to bring it in pretty danged well plinking away. And I do have an inkling how to shoot - I had solid rests front and back, understand the press of the trigger, and dangit this scope is magnificent.

I wish it were me, but am pretty sure I am not the issue.

Starting to panic, hunt is November 6, and I am running low on my 180 gr ammo, tho I have a decent amount of 165 grain.

Thinking about putting a new scope on my Savage 99, since I have plenty of .308 ammo. The 4X scope with two chips in the ocular likely is not enough for my old eyeballs.

I have never shot my M77 very well, but had up till now blamed me, not the rifle and/or scope. Now I am wondering...

You can try swapping the scope from your 223 to your 06 and see if it is a scope issue if the tubes are the same size. Sounds like the scope might be moving around on you inside the rings or there is an issue inside the scope itself. If the swap doesn't alter the outcome, then it is in the rifle+round arena. Is this a wood or synthetic stock?

 

[David58]

You can try swapping the scope from your 223 to your 06 and see if it is a scope issue if the tubes are the same size. Sounds like the scope might be moving around on you inside the rings or there is an issue inside the scope itself. If the swap doesn't alter the outcome, then it is in the rifle+round arena. Is this a wood or synthetic stock?

I get what you're saying, but the scope is on my '06. May go ahead and try moving it to the Savage 99, but have to see how the scope would fit and confirm the 1" tube on the old scope. I hate changing mid-stream, but I don't think I have the time to free the barrel from stock contact, properly bed the action, and sight in - especially given my ammo situation. I guess if ammo weren't $80+ a box for '06 right now....

Will be giving the swap a closer look tomorrow. Doubt I will see MOA with the 99, but MOE will work in elk season. Right now I am barely minute of barn door.

Crap. Didn't want to be learning this kind of stuff this soon before a trip....sure thought I had it working before, but better to find out now than lose a wounded critter. May lose some sleep by the time this is over, a $1000 tag will do that to you.

 

[cahunter805]

Is this a new scope? What model is it? Sounds like it may be an issue with the scope not holding zero. How tight did you torque the ring caps to?

Also it wouldn’t take much time at all the remove the barreled action and sand the barrel channel for some clearance. Use an appropriate size deep well socket wrapped in sandpaper and keep working at it.

Lastly I’d try some of the 165gr ammo you have and see if it groups any better. Some rifles just don’t like some ammo.

 

[220yotekiller]

I have a Ruger M77 and it is a 1/2 moa gun, that is with custom barrel but still they can be exceptionally accurate. If it were me i would pull the action out and either glass bed it myself or get a good smith to do it for me. Lap the rings so that the scope can't be tweaked in them, I know that it is hard in this climate but see if you can get your hands on some other ammo. It likely isn't copper fouling, all of my center fire rifles shoot moa or less and I haven't cleaned for copper fouling in years. The 30-06 in my experience is not a particularly accurate round. One thing that you might do is take it to a smith and have them take a quick look at the crown although if it is shooting at 100 yards that isn't the likely culprit.