Ryan Busse is a coward

[WoodMoose]

ut I'd argue other than maybe MA the German system is better. A lot of the US is 3rd world level, just depends on where you are.

comparing a country half the size of Texas, with 85+ million people and a Federal tax rate of 42% - plus surcharges and state/city taxes (if you make more than 67k US a year) is a little disingenuous

plus the world comes here for serious health care, not the other way around

yes, some areas have lesser care - just a fact of life for such a large country

 

[grizzly_]

what firearm did Trump ban?

Bump stocks. He literally had to declare them to be "firearms" to ban them the way he did. It was a multi-step process.

The ATF in 2010, under Obama, had declared that bump stocks weren't "firearms" and couldn't be regulated by the ATF. They said it would require a law to ban bump stocks.

Trump, by Executive Action, declared bump stocks to be firearms and therefore under the authority of the National Firearms Act and Gun Control Act, and therefore illegal. He ordered that all law-abiding citizens in possession of a bump stock must destroy them or divest themselves of the bump stock.

The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals later overturned Trump's Executive Action by 13-3 vote because gun control laws clearly take a vote by Congress and can't be implemented via Executive Action, which Trump had done.

Department of Justice Announces Bump-Stock-Type Devices Final Rule

Today, Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker announced that the Department of Justice has amended the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), clarifying that bump stocks fall within the definition of “machinegun” under federal law, as such devices allow...

www.justice.gov

Trump administration moves to ban bump stocks

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Trump administration Tuesday banned bump stocks, the firearm attachments that allow semi-automatic weapons to fire like machine guns and were used during the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history.

apnews.com

Federal court strikes down Trump-era bump stock ban

A court has ruled against the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' ban on bump stocks, finding the agency acted without congressional authorization.

www.foxnews.com

 

[WoodMoose]

Bump stocks.

I figured you were talking bump stocks

I just never considered those as firearms - just an accessory some folks used with a real firearm

 

[WoodMoose]

Wood moose gonna set it off at 9:30 on Sunday night.

been busy, only been looking at the cooking subforum till tonight

some great points on both sides of this serious issue in this (long) thread

 

[grizzly_]

I figured you were talking bump stocks

I just never considered those as firearms - just an accessory some folks used with a real firearm

Obama's ATF and the Appeals Court agreed with you.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

comparing a country half the size of Texas, with 85+ million people and a Federal tax rate of 42% - plus surcharges and state/city taxes (if you make more than 67k US a year) is a little disingenuous

plus the world comes here for serious health care, not the other way around

yes, some areas have lesser care - just a fact of life for such a large country

Add in German insurance premiums and that bumps total more like 57%

USA insurance premiums added to our existing Federal, State, sales and whatnot taxes ballpark 45% of income paid.

Germany- free college bachelor’s degree tuition, plus free tuition on some master’s programs as well.

USA- Shame on them for going to college. Without scholarships and grants, kids and/or parents need to ante up about $100k for a bachelor’s program.

The world does come here for healthcare. As in India and Philippines to get jobs as staff.

 

[Irishman]

comparing a country half the size of Texas, with 85+ million people and a Federal tax rate of 42% - plus surcharges and state/city taxes (if you make more than 67k US a year) is a little disingenuous

plus the world comes here for serious health care, not the other way around

yes, some areas have lesser care - just a fact of life for such a large country

It's true that some people do come to the US for medical procedures, on the other hand 780,000 US citizens went abroad for Healthcare in 2019 (traveling abroad kind of came to a halt after 2019)

 

[DouglasR]

#whiteflightwllm

That’s the kinda comment that’ll have you dragging a high end mountain bike behind your pickup.
Gotta get it under control.

 

[406dn]

violence in the USA is an issue, but subverting the 2nd Amendment will not stop it. It goes deeper than the tool used. Until we address that, fussing about tools is useless

also, at the end of the day (and when it was written) the 2nd Amendment is about protecting the citizenry from tyranny. So to me, an important aspect is the history of democide in the World and how we ensure it will NEVER happen here

Many countries have killed millions of their own citizens

yeah, I know, it can 'never" happen here

If you count the Civil war, we have killed a decent number of our fellow citizens. Our policies toward the indigenous people of our country killed a large number of them, as well.

The 2nd amendment did not help much in either case.

We, nor any other society will ever perfect the humans living there. The line detailing which weapons the general public can legally own has to be drawn somewhere. Fully automatic weapons have long been more heavily regulated. Shotguns must have a barrel of a certain length, yada, yada.

"Assault" weapons were banned for a period of time, and the world continued to spin.

It will take several more years of mass shootings in schools, malls, churches etc, before anything changes. But there will be a point where enough of the population decides enough is enough.

 

[Straight Arrow]

If you count the Civil war, we have killed a decent number of our fellow citizens. Our policies toward the indigenous people of our country killed a large number of them, as well.

The 2nd amendment did not help much in either case.

We, nor any other society will ever perfect the humans living there. The line detailing which weapons the general public can legally own has to be drawn somewhere. Fully automatic weapons have long been more heavily regulated. Shotguns must have a barrel of a certain length, yada, yada.

"Assault" weapons were banned for a period of time, and the world continued to spin.

It will take several more years of mass shootings in schools, malls, churches etc, before anything changes. But there will be a point where enough of the population decides enough is enough.

Agreed. That is the very reason some "reasonable" (whatever that imay be) restrictions are imperative. Otherwise the pendulum will swing as you describle and likely will result in much more stringent firearms laws and regulations, with the radical 2A advocates very disappointed. Doing NOTHING is unacceptable to me and to many others already.

 

[DouglasR]

In the near future, Quantum computers will be able to stop these mass shootings before they happen so I predict 2a will remain intact.

 

[4ohSick]

In the near future, Quantum computers will be able to stop these mass shootings before they happen so I predict 2a will remain intact.

If AI stops mass shootings, it will be by identifying crazies by their internet posts. Good luck buddy!

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

In the near future, Quantum computers will be able to stop these mass shootings before they happen so I predict 2a will remain intact.

Intel could reorganize as a govt-owned corp and rename as Ingsoc!

 

[more_cowbell]

Otherwise the pendulum will swing as you describle and likely will result in much more stringent firearms laws and regulations, with the radical 2A advocates very disappointed.

This could be the case, but the argument goes that some the constitutional amendments are to protect the rights of a minority of people, since “impassioned mob rule” was a concern. Implementing much more stringent regulations would therefore probably require amending the 2A itself.

That’s not to say past firearms regulation has in certain cases gone beyond what the 2A would allow.

Here in Oregon, in an effort to to defend the constitutionality of the very broad (barely) voter passed measure 114, the Oregon attorney general relied on a law from the 1800s which prevented African Americans from owning firearms.

The argument was basically that since there’s already been a law like that on the books, Oregons measure 114 isn’t a big deal.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

This could be the case, but the argument goes that some the constitutional amendments are to protect the rights of a minority of people, since “impassioned mob rule” was a concern. Implementing much more stringent regulations would therefore probably require amending the 2A itself.

That’s not to say past firearms regulation has in certain cases gone beyond what the 2A would allow.

Here in Oregon, in an effort to to defend the constitutionality of the very broad (barely) voter passed measure 114, the Oregon attorney general relied on a law from the 1800s which prevented African Americans from owning firearms.

The argument was basically that since there’s already been a law like that on the books, Oregons measure 114 isn’t a big deal.

Was there census data of African Americans in 19th Century Oregon or the abject fear thereof? Last time I was there weren’t distinguishable from Vermont far as demographics.

 

[SAJ-99]

violence in the USA is an issue, but subverting the 2nd Amendment will not stop it. It goes deeper than the tool used. Until we address that, fussing about tools is useless

I am always curious about this argument. Americans and other countries have always gone after the tool. England removed CO from the nat gas supply because people found it clear and convenient way to commit suicide. It much simpler to take aim at the tool I guess. The argument is like saying Americans love to get high so we shouldn’t make having fentanyl without a prescription illegal. After all, these are people that need mental health care too.

The 2A certainly makes correcting the issue harder. None of us knows what the founding fathers thought then or would think now, and we have to admit it doesn’t matter. We need to decide how to address the issue in this century, not the 1700’s.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Implementing much more stringent regulations would therefore probably require amending the 2A itself.

Not true. There have already been regulations implemented and upheld by the judicial system, with no amendments to 2A. Federal, state, and local laws have already been enacted, implemented, and upheld.

Not to be disrespectful, but the "amendment argument" remains a trite red herring. 'Hope you don't think you thought that up independently.

 

[more_cowbell]

Not true. There have already been regulations implemented and upheld by the judicial system, with no amendments to 2A. Federal, state, and local laws have already been enacted, implemented, and upheld.

Not to be disrespectful, but the "amendment argument" remains a trite red herring. 'Hope you don't think you thought that up independently.

To be fair you said “much more stringent regulations” in the context of the pendulum (popular opinion) swinging, so I had to assume for sake of argument that meant something beyond what many people argue the 2A allows. (Not just “radicals”)

 

[more_cowbell]

Was there census data of African Americans in 19th Century Oregon or the abject fear thereof? Last time I was there weren’t distinguishable from Vermont far as demographics.

There was a law that said African Americans couldn’t own firearms.

 

[DouglasR]

If AI stops mass shootings, it will be by identifying crazies by their internet posts. Good luck buddy!

Lol
My cil, a professor at Rensselaer polytechnic institute is one of the leading scientist at the large cuckedron collider in Geneva, Switzerland where my wife and I plan on retiring.
You have a lot to learn about quantum mechanics.