Retrieval of game from private land in Montana

[Elky Welky]

My question would be what happened in the past to make this landowner feel this way. We as hunters are our worst enemy. If that rancher was a born and raised Montanan my guess is someone in the past or multiple someone’s did some pretty stupid stuff on his place and he doesn’t wanna deal with it anymore.

I've seen and appreciate this point, but I don't think that correlation with past experiences with hunters is all that fair. We don't give domestic abusers a pass because they had issues in their past with their mom. I can certainly understand why a landowner might be cautious and even come out angry, but upon recognizing the situation I'd hope they'd have some basic courtesy. That's not what happened here.

In my experience, whether or not a rancher is from MT seems to make little difference in how they treat people. Good people are just that. I do know some very good ranchers from here or elsewhere, and I've met my fair share of unethical hunters too (If anything, I've met more local hunters that were worse, to be completely honest--if not a little beside the point).

My story was largely to illustrate the extreme example of why it is good to be cautious. The law, as it stands, will favor a private property owner, whether they are a good person or not.

 

[BuzzH]

My question would be what happened in the past to make this landowner feel this way. We as hunters are our worst enemy. If that rancher was a born and raised Montanan my guess is someone in the past or multiple someone’s did some pretty stupid stuff on his place and he doesn’t wanna deal with it anymore.

Too much AM radio most likely.

 

[The Hedgehog]

You have to ask the landowner to retrieve it. If they say no, then there is nothing a game warden or anyone else can do about it.

I was recently told a story from a friend about him and another buddy elk hunting not too far outside the park. He broke his ankle on the mountain, and his buddy had his arm in a cast from a different incident. They hiked together out and down the mountain about .5 mile through private land to get to the highway for help, because otherwise they would have had to go up and over the mountain through deadfall a few miles.

The landowner confronted them and could not have cared less that he had a broken ankle and his partner was also injured, and threatened charges. None were brought, but I think it is worthwhile to note: for some, basic human dignity means less than their perceived property rights. So if they can't even acknowledge that, then why would they care about meat care or anything else involving ethics? My property is mine is mine is mine is mine..., as the circular logic goes.

Obviously this isn't all landowners, but it doesn't surprise me that someone who can afford to own property outside the park would act this way; and it makes me leery.

I prefer to hunt as far from private land as I can, because I don't like anyone dictating what I can and cannot do with regards to public wildlife. And if I get hurt out there, I'd rather not risk getting shot at for, ironically, trying to get out alive.

I'd bet for every nearly hypothermic, half frozen hunter with a broken ankle just trying to make it safely to the Emergency room, there's five others with a set of antlers and 2 backstraps in their pack coming out at night, just taking a shortcut.

 

[Forkyfinder]

The articular you posted a while back stated that the public grazing fee is tied to price of beef and the cost of inputs. Combine the two and you get profits.

Beef Production by State 2023 - Wisevoter

Beef production in the United States is a vital sector of the agricultural industry, contributing significantly to the nation’s economy and food supply. The U.S. is one of the world’s leading beef producers, with a long-standing tradition of cattle ranching and a diverse landscape that supports...

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Only 1 of the top (number 7 - MT) 12 beef producers need low price blm/usfs land to make it.

Its good (grazing) when done right. But the blm lacks resources to deal with people who dont.

 

[Nameless Range]

Based on some of the stories I've heard, it sounds like when the kid next door hits his ball over the fence and knocks on his neighbor's door to see if he can retrieve it, some folks tell that 4th grader to beat it and get off their lawn.

I have been in one instance where a pronghorn I shot ran onto private property. I wasn't hunting near the private really, but I did make a poor shot. I asked the landowner if I could pursue it, and he said yes, which I greatly appreciated.

That said, if that pronghorn was lying dead out there and he said no, you can bet I would've tried to get it come darkness. I put most trespassing infractions right up there with other "wrong" acts like having a sip of beer at the age of 20, driving 77 in a 75, and taking a 31 minute lunch break - none are that big of a deal, and all would be worth the risk of the potential consequences of not leaving an animal one has killed left to rot.

Landowners deal with a ton of BS, and I do not condone trespassing. The last thing Montana needs is more friction with folks who own large chunks of habitat. That said, a few states have Right to Retrieve in their laws, and the sky has yet to fall. It's as much a cultural thing as anything, and Stream Access is a good exemplar. In places that don't have it, it's existence seems an affront to all that is holy and is a clear example of naked trespass to some of those with private property. We could just as easily exist in an alternate Montana where Right to Retrieve is a thing, and not much would be different to 99% of the state.

 

[antlerradar]

Its good (grazing) when done right. But the blm lacks resources to deal with people who dont.

Yup, BLM and Forest Service lack the resources to deal with the bad apples. This is why I don't want a grazing system that will require stockmen to extract every last nickle out of public land just to stay in business.

 

[Elky Welky]

Based on some of the stories I've heard, it sounds like when the kid next door hits his ball over the fence and knocks on his neighbor's door to see if he can retrieve it, some folks tell that 4th grader to beat it and get off their lawn.

I have been in one instance where a pronghorn I shot ran onto private property. I wasn't hunting near the private really, but I did make a poor shot. I asked the landowner if I could pursue it, and he said yes, which I greatly appreciated.

That said, if that pronghorn was lying dead out there and he said no, you can bet I would've tried to get it come darkness. I put most trespassing infractions right up there with other "wrong" acts like having a sip of beer at the age of 20, driving 77 in a 75, and taking a 31 minute lunch break - none are that big of a deal, and all would be worth the risk of the potential consequences of not leaving an animal one has killed left to rot.

Landowners deal with a ton of BS, and I do not condone trespassing. The last thing Montana needs is more friction with folks who own large chunks of habitat. That said, a few states have Right to Retrieve in their laws, and the sky has yet to fall. It's as much a cultural thing as anything, and Stream Access is a good exemplar. In places that don't have it, it's existence seems an affront to all that is holy and is a clear example of naked trespass to some of those with private property. We could just as easily exist in an alternate Montana where Right to Retrieve is a thing, and not much would be different to 99% of the state.

How dare drivers go 2 mph over the speed limit! 75 means 75 means 75! No exceptions! Ever!

I agree with all your other examples, however, as a society we have by and large given some holy sanctity to private property rights that exceed all reason. Perhaps not you and I, but if there wasn't a large portion of the population that somehow condoned this ridiculous worldview, then the corner crossing case in WY would never have happened.

It's one of those things people just seem to get real weird about.

I have a far funnier story about a case I declined to prosecute back when I was a prosecutor: a woman, angry that her neighbor's fence possibly encroached 2 inches into her property, ran screaming into the street when she saw her neighbor walking his dog with his wife and kid. The neighbor, confused and scared, threw an oreo cookie at the screaming woman to get her to stop. She tripped, broke her leg, and wanted to charge the guy with assault. Her husband came out, saw her leg broken, and promptly punched the poor neighbor. The cops showed up and did what cops do, charging everyone so the lawyers could figure it out later. We did: her husband was charged with assault, and the neighbor wasn't charged with anything.

This great cookie caper was all over 2 un-surveyed inches of property.

 

[Pagosa]

Beef Production by State 2023 - Wisevoter

Beef production in the United States is a vital sector of the agricultural industry, contributing significantly to the nation’s economy and food supply. The U.S. is one of the world’s leading beef producers, with a long-standing tradition of cattle ranching and a diverse landscape that supports...

wisevoter.com

Only 1 of the top (number 7 - MT) 12 beef producers need low price blm/usfs land to make it.

It’s good (grazing) when done right. But the blm lacks resources to deal with people who dont.

So many of the FS/BLM grazing leases are in drought prone areas, just ask the ranchers in the Sun/Teton drainages right now. Or a rancher in eastern WY/MT in 21/22 or 06-12. Normally drought conditions exist in some region 4 out of 10 years in a large section of Montana, Dakotas, or Wyoming, and probably other areas. The grazing leasee puts a considerable amount of time in spring/water source development, fencing, assisting in first responders to wild fires (500-1000 gallon tank on a flat bed), rotating livestock, salt licks, etc. So some of these activities are beneficial to wildlife, and most FS offices have utilized the Allen Savory holistic grazing management plan, so it’s beneficial to the landscape, resting these parcels is the worst thing that can happen. Most of the worst grazing impacts I have seen have been on single state school lands that get hammered by the livestock leasee.

Sorry to derail the thread, and if I’m hunting close to a private boundary I definitely want to make a killing shot to ensure it dies on the right side of the fence or I keep shooting until it’s dead. I would not feel comfortable bow hunting next to a private parcel because of this reason.

 

[Stifler]

How dare drivers go 2 mph over the speed limit! 75 means 75 means 75! No exceptions! Ever!

I agree with all your other examples, however, as a society we have by and large given some holy sanctity to private property rights that exceed all reason. Perhaps not you and I, but if there wasn't a large portion of the population that somehow condoned this ridiculous worldview, then the corner crossing case in WY would never have happened.

It's one of those things people just seem to get real weird about.

I have a far funnier story about a case I declined to prosecute back when I was a prosecutor: a woman, angry that her neighbor's fence possibly encroached 2 inches into her property, ran screaming into the street when she saw her neighbor walking his dog with his wife and kid. The neighbor, confused and scared, threw an oreo cookie at the screaming woman to get her to stop. She tripped, broke her leg, and wanted to charge the guy with assault. Her husband came out, saw her leg broken, and promptly punched the poor neighbor. The cops showed up and did what cops do, charging everyone so the lawyers could figure it out later. We did: her husband was charged with assault, and the neighbor wasn't charged with anything.

This great cookie caper was all over 2 un-surveyed inches of property.

I get it to the extent of working for what you have. Being a proud landowner. As you should. I also agree that private land rights are important. We might think 2 inches is silly but a women it might make the difference in the relationship... don't discount 2 inches but I understand and support the landowners in the long run. Even if I ever found myself having to leave a animal rot. It would hurt terribly. But id have to assume it was their limit. Just had enough. But private lands are very needed they provide alot of sanctuary and feed.. I don't agree with letting something get away to rot for coyotes and pride..

My personal thoughts is a GW should be able to get a warrent for the animal since technically it belongs to the state. But that's a can of worms not worth getting into. Because again private rights are important. But I equally think it's important if we take a animal we do what we can to retrieve it.

I think most people are going to be understanding to some extent.. if your in a high pressure area I'd expect grumble.. if your in a area that outfitters are in I'd expect to lose that animal... and possibly hired hands from big ranches like stated earlier.

 

[antlerradar]

I've seen and appreciate this point, but I don't think that correlation with past experiences with hunters is all that fair. We don't give domestic abusers a pass because they had issues in their past with their mom. I can certainly understand why a landowner might be cautious and even come out angry, but upon recognizing the situation I'd hope they'd have some basic courtesy. That's not what happened here.

One of the reasons I am on this forum and go out of my way to talk to hunters on the adjacent public is because if the only interaction I have with hunters is when I have to deal with the scum bags I would have a very jaded view of hunting in short order.

 

[JEL]

As a landowner I would never refuse someone the opportunity to retrieve downed game. I would however have several questions before allowing the retrieval.

 

[mtmuley]

Beef Production by State 2023 - Wisevoter

Beef production in the United States is a vital sector of the agricultural industry, contributing significantly to the nation’s economy and food supply. The U.S. is one of the world’s leading beef producers, with a long-standing tradition of cattle ranching and a diverse landscape that supports...

wisevoter.com

Only 1 of the top (number 7 - MT) 12 beef producers need low price blm/usfs land to make it.

Its good (grazing) when done right. But the blm lacks resources to deal with people who dont.

Start another thread. mtmuley

 

[RoughCountry]

Just this year I found a truck parked half way up the private road leading to the house. I thought who would just park there, so I went driving around and found two guys hiking through the trees. I caught up with them and asked what they were doing. Their reply was we’re looking for an elk we think we hit.

It’s all private land around me. I asked well,if you had come up to my house and talked to me or called the sheriffs dept and have them get in touch with me it would be ok but now I don’t want you on the property. They left and I got a horse and a couple dogs and spent the rest of the day looking for a wounded elk. Never did find one. All they had to do was ask and they didn’t.

 

[jimh406]

Letting people retrieve game on your property does potentially set a bad precedent. That is, people will hunt boundaries if they can get away with it over and over. It's really hard to say why the landowner is preventing recovery without asking them. I'm sure they all have their "stories", too. I wonder why so many people like to hunt close to private/public boundaries with the potential issues that they know about. Maybe it has to do with so many people being "competitive" hunting.

That being said, I had a hunter stop by to ask if they could retrieve their Elk that was shot on private. I said, ok. I was working outside and noticed they were still trying to get it up the hill. After that, they would have had quite a distance, and there were three of them. I walked up and got my UTV. Then, I drove there and winched the Elk up the hill, and drug it to their truck. They probably would have been at it the rest of the day without my help.

On the other hand, a truck appeared on my land when I wasn't home but someone was. By the time my neighbor got there, he was gone. Probably a poacher, but who knows.

Everyone has their stories.

 

[Ought Six]

I know a guy that arrowed an antelope and it ran onto private and he watched it die. He went and asked permission to retrieve it and the landowner told him to let it rot… he shot another better antelope a few days later with his bow. Seems like wanton waste on the part of the landowner, but I guess he didn’t shoot the antelope, although he is responsible for its rotting. Precarious situation

 

[cgasner1]

One of the reasons I am on this forum and go out of my way to talk to hunters on the adjacent public is because if the only interaction I have with hunters is when I have to deal with the scum bags I would have a very jaded view of hunting in short order.

Have you ever saw the same guy twice? I could see someone being a repeat offender if you let them go the first time

 

[antlerradar]

I never have, but have pinched several that had previous charges and quite a few that deserved a bunch of tickets but managed to avoid them. Part of the problem legit hunters face is I can only think of two out of all the people I have caught that did not use the "I thought this was public" or "I shot him on public and he ran onto the private" excuse.

 

[DFS]

I know a landowner that keeps things pretty locked up, couple years ago he let a father and daughter go after a mule deer buck that she wounded. He checked in with them and they said they couldn’t find that buck but they ran into a bigger buck and shot it. The buck was a three year old with incredible genetics that he had been watching. It’s no wonder he keeps things locked up. He has actually said I would allow some access if we weren’t hunting muleys when they are stupid but someone needs to protect them. Rut hunt in Montana leads people to do some dumb things.

 

[Pagosa]

A person should ask beforehand if they plan hunting close to private and let the landowner know and see if hate/dislike hunting. It would save a lot of hurt feelings and legal issues

 

[jmcd]

I generally avoid hunting up against private….especially archery. I just assume the landowner has seen it/heard it all before and is sour.
I imagine an average guy in town would get equally as sour if strangers were constantly cutting through his backyard looking for a frisbee or football etc….