Retrieval of game from private land in Montana

[thusby]

I’m not hunting anywhere near private, I wouldn’t be able to find a phone number for 99 of a 100 properties.

 

[antlerradar]

If grazing fees on public were close to what they are on private (what im referring to as market), do you think as many people would stay in the cattle business?

Nope, They would sell that permit to some sucker that would then find out that public grazing leases are not worth as much as a private lease. The only way to truly find out what the market rate for a lease is would be to put them up for bid. Some leases would be competitive, on others there would be only one person biding. This would be the way to go if the only goal was to generate the most money. The problem with this approach would be that stockowners with the least amount of fixed costs would now have a big advantage when it came to being the high bidder and they would use the permit like the rented mule it now is. Seen this all the time with privet leases. Lessor abuses the place and when the lease is up they walk away.
I think that grazing fees could stand to increase, but when the other side is pushing a price that will put you out of business it is a non starter, rancher are going to dig in their heals.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Nope, They would sell that permit to some sucker that would then find out that public grazing leases are not worth as much as a private lease. The only way to truly find out what the market rate for a lease is would be to put them up for bid. Some leases would be competitive, on others there would be only one person biding. This would be the way to go if the only goal was to generate the most money. The problem with this approach would be that stockowners with the least amount of fixed costs would now have a big advantage when it came to being the high bidder and they would use the permit like the rented mule it now is. Seen this all the time with privet leases. Lessor abuses the place and when the lease is up they walk away.
I think that grazing fees could stand to increase, but when the other side is pushing a price that will put you out of business it is a non starter, rancher are going to dig in their heals.

Name one thing lower priced today than 1980

 

[BuzzH]

Nope, They would sell that permit to some sucker that would then find out that public grazing leases are not worth as much as a private lease. The only way to truly find out what the market rate for a lease is would be to put them up for bid. Some leases would be competitive, on others there would be only one person biding. This would be the way to go if the only goal was to generate the most money. The problem with this approach would be that stockowners with the least amount of fixed costs would now have a big advantage when it came to being the high bidder and they would use the permit like the rented mule it now is. Seen this all the time with privet leases. Lessor abuses the place and when the lease is up they walk away.
I think that grazing fees could stand to increase, but when the other side is pushing a price that will put you out of business it is a non starter, rancher are going to dig in their heals.

Absolutely and I believe that better over-sight of the leases needs to happen. That's not on the person leasing it, that's on the agency.

I would go so far in some cases like you described (only one person bidding on the lease in marginal country) to pay zero for the lease if they took proper care of it.

I would also have no problem with very competitive bidding on the desirable leases when big businesses are competing with one another (corporate ranches, wealthy hobby ranchers, etc.).

It's always seemed unfair to me to have blanket prices on leases. Too many variables at play on quality of the leases, the country, access to them, forage potential, maintenance, etc. etc. etc.

 

[antlerradar]

Name one thing lower priced today than 1980

Not sure about 1980, but when adjusted for inflation today's record cattle prices may still be lower today than in the highs of the 1970s. They were a lot lower just a few years ago.
One thing is for sure, the price of all the inputs that go into raising a calf have sure not gone down.

 

[antlerradar]

Name one thing lower priced today than 1980

Just to stir the pot. The price of hunting public land has not changed since 1980. Private land on the other hand, big increase even if you account for inflation.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Not sure about 1980, but when adjusted for inflation today's record cattle prices may still be lower today than in the highs of the 1970s. They were a lot lower just a few years ago.
One thing is for sure, the price of all the inputs that go into raising a calf have sure not gone down.

Average Price: Ground Beef, 100% Beef (Cost per Pound/453.6 Grams) in U.S. City Average

Fresh regular 100% ground beef excluding round, chuck, and sirloin. Includes organic and non-organic. Excludes pre-formed patties."

fred.stlouisfed.org

Just to stir the pot. The price of hunting public land has not changed since 1980. Private land on the other hand, big increase even if you account for inflation.

Public use for recreation is largely free or nearly free. Always has been.

1981 aum - 2.31
2024 aum - 1.35

 

[antlerradar]

Absolutely and I believe that better over-sight of the leases needs to happen. That's not on the person leasing it, that's on the agency.

I would go so far in some cases like you described (only one person bidding on the lease in marginal country) to pay zero for the lease if they took proper care of it.

I would also have no problem with very competitive bidding on the desirable leases when big businesses are competing with one another (corporate ranches, wealthy hobby ranchers, etc.).

It's always seemed unfair to me to have blanket prices on leases. Too many variables at play on quality of the leases, the country, access to them, forage potential, maintenance, etc. etc. etc.

I forgot about the big corporate and wealthy hobby ranchers. Competitive leasing would be a dream come true for them. Out bid the current lease holder and then you could buy their private land at a discount.

 

[antlerradar]

Average Price: Ground Beef, 100% Beef (Cost per Pound/453.6 Grams) in U.S. City Average

Fresh regular 100% ground beef excluding round, chuck, and sirloin. Includes organic and non-organic. Excludes pre-formed patties."

fred.stlouisfed.org

If ranchers got hamburger price for a steer, I bet that they would be happy pay more for a lease.

 

[Forkyfinder]

If ranchers got hamburger price for a steer, I bet that they would be happy pay more for a lease.

 

[antlerradar]

Average Price: Ground Beef, 100% Beef (Cost per Pound/453.6 Grams) in U.S. City Average

Fresh regular 100% ground beef excluding round, chuck, and sirloin. Includes organic and non-organic. Excludes pre-formed patties."

fred.stlouisfed.org

Public use for recreation is largely free or nearly free. Always has been.

1981 aum - 2.31
2024 aum - 1.35

There was a time when cattle grazing was fee for all on the public range. That resulted in the "Tragedy of the Commons". As a result permits that were tied to privet land were issued. Can you think of a modern day tragedy of the commons that is happening right now? I can.

 

[antlerradar]

View attachment 315544

grazing fees are tied to profits not revenue.

 

[Forkyfinder]

grazing fees are tied to profits not revenue.

No. Grazing fees are tied to special interest.

What kind of circular logic is that? Try that with o&g/coal royalties. They are input costs in front of profits and revenue. They havent kept with the times - and got worse.

 

[SaskHunter]

It blows my mind that in some jurisdictions, a CO/GW cannot enter private property to retrieve game, even if it is to seize and donate the animal.

While this might not be wanton waste as the landowner didn't shoot the animal, it is completely wasteful, all in the name of "mUh pRoPeRtY".

 

[antlerradar]

No. Grazing fees are tied to special interest.

What kind of circular logic is that? Try that with o&g/coal royalties. They are input costs in front of profits and revenue. They havent kept with the times - and got worse.

The articular you posted a while back stated that the public grazing fee is tied to price of beef and the cost of inputs. Combine the two and you get profits.

 

[Wyhunter]

It blows my mind that in some jurisdictions, a CO/GW cannot enter private property to retrieve game, even if it is to seize and donate the animal.

While this might not be wanton waste as the landowner didn't shoot the animal, it is completely wasteful, all in the name of "mUh pRoPeRtY".

4th amendment buddy. Unlawful search and seizure. Maybe they dont want a government offical going onto their property and violating their privacy. You open that can of worms with case law and we are all screwed.
Also, Allowing people to retrieve their animals perpetuates hunting boundaries and possibly increases the amount of trespassing.
That being said, If I was a large land owner, I would absolutely let someone get their harvest so it didnt go to waste, especially if they called the game warden for assistance.

 

[SaskHunter]

4th amendment buddy. Unlawful search and seizure. Maybe they dont want a government offical going onto their property and violating their privacy. You open that can of worms with case law and we are all screwed.
Also, Allowing people to retrieve their animals perpetuates hunting boundaries and possibly increases the amount of trespassing.
That being said, If I was a large land owner, I would absolutely let someone get their harvest so it didnt go to waste, especially if they called the game warden for assistance.

Idk man, COs can retrieve downed game on private land here in socialist Canada without any issues.

COs are LEOs and conduct investigations all the time, they can see if a downed animal on private was or wasn't shot there, and deal with the shooter accordingly.

 

[cgasner1]

If grazing fees on public were close to what they are on private (what im referring to as market), do you think as many people would stay in the cattle business?

Which would mean less beef and more big out of state ranches. Less beef drives price up higher and more people start killing more deer. Because “it’s cheaper”

 

[Elky Welky]

You have to ask the landowner to retrieve it. If they say no, then there is nothing a game warden or anyone else can do about it.

I was recently told a story from a friend about him and another buddy elk hunting not too far outside the park. He broke his ankle on the mountain, and his buddy had his arm in a cast from a different incident. They hiked together out and down the mountain about .5 mile through private land to get to the highway for help, because otherwise they would have had to go up and over the mountain through deadfall a few miles.

The landowner confronted them and could not have cared less that he had a broken ankle and his partner was also injured, and threatened charges. None were brought, but I think it is worthwhile to note: for some, basic human dignity means less than their perceived property rights. So if they can't even acknowledge that, then why would they care about meat care or anything else involving ethics? My property is mine is mine is mine is mine..., as the circular logic goes.

Obviously this isn't all landowners, but it doesn't surprise me that someone who can afford to own property outside the park would act this way; and it makes me leery.

I prefer to hunt as far from private land as I can, because I don't like anyone dictating what I can and cannot do with regards to public wildlife. And if I get hurt out there, I'd rather not risk getting shot at for, ironically, trying to get out alive.

 

[cgasner1]

You have to ask the landowner to retrieve it. If they say no, then there is nothing a game warden or anyone else can do about it.

I was recently told a story from a friend about him and another buddy elk hunting not too far outside the park. He broke his ankle on the mountain, and his buddy had his arm in a cast from a different incident. They hiked together out and down the mountain about .5 mile through private land to get to the highway for help, because otherwise they would have had to go up and over the mountain through deadfall a few miles.

The landowner confronted them and could not have cared less that he had a broken ankle and his partner was also injured, and threatened charges. None were brought, but I think it is worthwhile to note: for some, basic human dignity means less than their perceived property rights. So if they can't even acknowledge that, then why would they care about meat care or anything else involving ethics? My property is mine is mine is mine is mine..., as the circular logic goes.

Obviously this isn't all landowners, but it doesn't surprise me that someone who can afford to own property outside the park would act this way; and it makes me leery.

I prefer to hunt as far from private land as I can, because I don't like anyone dictating what I can and cannot do with regards to public wildlife. And if I get hurt out there, I'd rather not risk getting shot at for, ironically, trying to get out alive.

My question would be what happened in the past to make this landowner feel this way. We as hunters are our worst enemy. If that rancher was a born and raised Montanan my guess is someone in the past or multiple someone’s did some pretty stupid stuff on his place and he doesn’t wanna deal with it anymore.