You couldn’t of just moved on Karen, thank you for the worthwhile edition
Protesters/Rioters? Storm Capital
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Addicting
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I do wonder about this mail in ballot initiative as well and hopefully a safe guard is put in place in the future. With Covid I think we did the best we could with a crap situation.
ignorethefringes
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Firstly, to be perfectly honest I think @Big Fin needs to come in and shut this thing back down. It's beyond the point of usefulness.
Secondly, as hard as this is for me to type, this is no different that any other person breaking and entering. I know she was a veteran, and I don't want people to die. But just like many people have said about black people getting shot by cops, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". I hate that it happened, but it could have easily been avoided.
FI460
Well-known member
Wyden and Klobuchar introduced a bill to address this back in February. It was blocked.
Schaaf
Well-known member
Where’s the beer?
Addicting
Well-known member
I am not going to pretend I’m smart enough to know the fine details between the States voting rights and the Feds influence on it with new legislation. I can say I do have hope for the future. I hope these events are addressed properly and are not repeated.
If that’s the reasoning you want to use fine but when people were trying to light a federal building on fire how many protesters were shot and killed? Or when people were throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks at police officers how many protesters were killed by police? You can’t have it both ways.
19 people died, 14,000 were arrested across 49 cities. They were gassed, shot w/ rubber bullets, had dogs set on them & were subjected to psy-ops.
treedagain
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1 had nothing to do with a black guy getting shot, everything to do with people wanting to loot-burn-steal. Thug
2 there was election fraud, but not a good reason to storm the house.
Addicting
Well-known member
The door was barricaded and did the officer have a reasonable fear that if it was breached the lives of those he was protected were in immediate danger.
At our base in Afghanistan the Rule of engagement allowed all kinds of crap to happen outside. 99% of we couldn’t do anything about. Once the gate was breached it was game on and they were all immediate threats.
To be clear I’m not saying what happened yesterday was a great thing. But let’s not just pretend that Trump was the only one that’s been banging on the drum of war for the last four years. There’s been a lot of saber rattling coming from both sides. I really don’t remember a whole lot of people on the left condemning the riots when it was antifa and BLM doing them.
I see no different than what happened all summer to what happened yesterday. Violently rioting, destroying businesses, attacking police officers is protesting but what happen yesterday was considered an insurrection? Biden could use as an opportunity to try to bring people together. But I think at this point in time it’s just going to be easier to take cheap shots at each other then put the stop to it in before it gets even more out of hand.
I see no different than what happened all summer to what happened yesterday. Violently rioting, destroying businesses, attacking police officers is protesting but what happen yesterday was considered an insurrection? Biden could use as an opportunity to try to bring people together. But I think at this point in time it’s just going to be easier to take cheap shots at each other then put the stop to it in before it gets even more out of hand.
treedagain
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How many of those 19 were shot by police? How many of those arrests were vacated by liberal Democrat's?
Again there was an armed response team on the other side of the door I think you’re going to have a hard time justifying that he felt his life or the people that he was protecting were in an immediate danger.
treedagain
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This was not a war torn country.
BuzzH
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Is there any irony in the fact of who is funding your pension in regard to this post you made? It's no wonder draw odds have you confused.
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Addicting
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But there is rules of engagement for that police officer in that building. Until those come out I will reserve judgment.
Addicting
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How many times are they supposed to retreat when the mob keeps pushing thru the building? With guns drawn and people shouting to stop and continued rushing them something bad was eminent. Where were they told this is the final stand.
VikingsGuy
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Part of the problem is that both left and right are constantly seeking self affirming data bites and spinning them beyond reasonable inference to win another point in the political game. And it is self re-inforcing, the more the otherside spins the more one ignores even the useful bits that may underlie their spin and the more you ratched up your own echo chamber. This has been going on for all of human history I suspect, but it does have peaks and valleys - the last 20 years have be working up to this peak.
A few examples:
I heard at least 5 different major network commentators refer to last night as an "armed insurrection by domestic terrorists". This is simply not accurate and not helpful. What they did was unlawful, unruly, dangerous and offensive, I would be the first to jail every person who entered the capitol unlawfully yesterday without losing a minute of sleep. But there is simply no evidence of signficant firearm use by the protestors, there is no evidence any of them intended to in fact install their own government while at the capitol and there is no evidence that they were terrorists by any reasonable definition of that term. This rhetoric does not help some on the right who have enabled Trump to see the harm in his hyperbole and divisiveness, it just confirms to them the media cannot be trusted to deliver them the news. We need to do better than this.
Similarly, I heard more than a few congress members and pundits say all 60 Trump legal suits have been throughly vetted by judges (including Trump appointees) and fully repudiated. This is only partially true - some have been factually vetted by a court - but most were summarily dismissed on procedural grounds without any actual hearing on the merits. And this is absolutely the way the law does and should work - concepts like standing etc are important part of a functioning legal system. So why not say, "most of Trumps law suits have been dismissed on procedural grounds but those that have proceeded have failed on the merits"? What about admitting that while Biden is our lawful and legitimate president elect, that some of the poll workers and sec of states played fast and loose around the edges and that those states should spend the next 2 years improving their rules and systems, as Florida did after 2000. And on the turn, Trump is absolutely wrong by any definition when he repeatedly says he "won a beautiful and historic landslide victory". Even if every one of the 60 lawsuits would have prevailed he would have barely ecked out a win. So how about we start speaking the fully nuanced truth instead of grand hyperbole. We need to do better than this.
So, as a life long conservative I state my respect for those Americans who peacefully protested this summer and yesterday, while also stating my complete disgust for those that destroyed public/private property, used violence and caused harm to others. But I also acknowledge, that in both instances, when long standing concerns are not given full due consideration (which is different than just giving them their way) at some point the most radical 2% agitators have fertile ground to sow chaos. And yes, black Americans have legitimate longstanding concerns about grave injustices that get routinely dismissed by half of our society; and yes, poor white Americans have suffered greatly at the hands of the de-industrialization of the country, and all have suffered as we remap the "nuclear family" as a primary feature of society and lose historical grounding points such as faith; and yes, I can see how the two-faced politicians on both sides of the aisle have earned the hate from the other side.
We need to start hearing one another. Much like humor - there are nuggets of truth behind even the most non-sensical positions. Rather than labelling those we disagree with as racists, communists, traitors, fools, etc., why don't we try to find out what grain of sand has been in their shoe for so long that it has come to this. Because we are better than this. We must to better than this.
A few examples:
I heard at least 5 different major network commentators refer to last night as an "armed insurrection by domestic terrorists". This is simply not accurate and not helpful. What they did was unlawful, unruly, dangerous and offensive, I would be the first to jail every person who entered the capitol unlawfully yesterday without losing a minute of sleep. But there is simply no evidence of signficant firearm use by the protestors, there is no evidence any of them intended to in fact install their own government while at the capitol and there is no evidence that they were terrorists by any reasonable definition of that term. This rhetoric does not help some on the right who have enabled Trump to see the harm in his hyperbole and divisiveness, it just confirms to them the media cannot be trusted to deliver them the news. We need to do better than this.
Similarly, I heard more than a few congress members and pundits say all 60 Trump legal suits have been throughly vetted by judges (including Trump appointees) and fully repudiated. This is only partially true - some have been factually vetted by a court - but most were summarily dismissed on procedural grounds without any actual hearing on the merits. And this is absolutely the way the law does and should work - concepts like standing etc are important part of a functioning legal system. So why not say, "most of Trumps law suits have been dismissed on procedural grounds but those that have proceeded have failed on the merits"? What about admitting that while Biden is our lawful and legitimate president elect, that some of the poll workers and sec of states played fast and loose around the edges and that those states should spend the next 2 years improving their rules and systems, as Florida did after 2000. And on the turn, Trump is absolutely wrong by any definition when he repeatedly says he "won a beautiful and historic landslide victory". Even if every one of the 60 lawsuits would have prevailed he would have barely ecked out a win. So how about we start speaking the fully nuanced truth instead of grand hyperbole. We need to do better than this.
So, as a life long conservative I state my respect for those Americans who peacefully protested this summer and yesterday, while also stating my complete disgust for those that destroyed public/private property, used violence and caused harm to others. But I also acknowledge, that in both instances, when long standing concerns are not given full due consideration (which is different than just giving them their way) at some point the most radical 2% agitators have fertile ground to sow chaos. And yes, black Americans have legitimate longstanding concerns about grave injustices that get routinely dismissed by half of our society; and yes, poor white Americans have suffered greatly at the hands of the de-industrialization of the country, and all have suffered as we remap the "nuclear family" as a primary feature of society and lose historical grounding points such as faith; and yes, I can see how the two-faced politicians on both sides of the aisle have earned the hate from the other side.
We need to start hearing one another. Much like humor - there are nuggets of truth behind even the most non-sensical positions. Rather than labelling those we disagree with as racists, communists, traitors, fools, etc., why don't we try to find out what grain of sand has been in their shoe for so long that it has come to this. Because we are better than this. We must to better than this.
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SaskHunter
Well-known member
Or maybe, these poop-disturbers have no real political allegiances and just DGAF. Any excuse is good to riot and break stuff when you're an idiot...
"Some men just want to watch the world burn" -Austin Powers' dad
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