2rocky
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Does anyone develop a Map graph of units that are gaining/losing?
Pronghorn guru question!
- Thread starter jimss
- Start date
Does anyone develop a Map graph of units that are gaining/losing?
There are a lot of interesting things brought up in this post. Thanks to everyone that has responded!
DrH, What is your opinion in regard to antelope bucks born in drought years having smaller horns for life than the same buck born in a wet year? Do you think a buck's horn sheath will be under developed for life if born during drought?
I'm not sure if any map graphs of units are available with antelope numbers. It would be possible to look up antelope unit tag numbers issued from year to year to determine fluctuations in tags issued...which is usually a sign of antelope numbers.
That is interesting numbers for the decrease in B&C ave buck score. I sure hope that number starts going the other direction! Eli, are you seeing the same trend in other units you've hunted since 2012?
It's my guess that it will stay the same in 2015 even though there was excellent moisture and vegetation growth in 2014 and...knock on wood things have been pretty so far in good in 2015. This will be year 3 after the 2012 drought.
DrH, What is your opinion in regard to antelope bucks born in drought years having smaller horns for life than the same buck born in a wet year? Do you think a buck's horn sheath will be under developed for life if born during drought?
I'm not sure if any map graphs of units are available with antelope numbers. It would be possible to look up antelope unit tag numbers issued from year to year to determine fluctuations in tags issued...which is usually a sign of antelope numbers.
That is interesting numbers for the decrease in B&C ave buck score. I sure hope that number starts going the other direction! Eli, are you seeing the same trend in other units you've hunted since 2012?
It's my guess that it will stay the same in 2015 even though there was excellent moisture and vegetation growth in 2014 and...knock on wood things have been pretty so far in good in 2015. This will be year 3 after the 2012 drought.
BuzzH
Well-known member
There is data taken for over-all population, not sure if its published for the public. I would guess the buck to doe ratios and doe to fawn ratios is about as specific as you'll get for anything beyond over-all population.
EliAGrimmett
Member
jims: Most of the Red Desert units are where we're seeing the trophy size decline. It seems as though the areas where the antelope may have refuge (areas that have more private ground and may have farm fields for the antelope to migrate into during drought times) are holding up pretty good. The problem with hunting those areas, of course, is navigating the private land.
Our average B&C scores for the areas we hunted in 2014:
Red Desert: 83 4/8" (10 bucks)
Everywhere Else: 84 7/8" (10 bucks)
Generally, you'd think those two numbers should be reversed.
Our average B&C scores for the areas we hunted in 2014:
Red Desert: 83 4/8" (10 bucks)
Everywhere Else: 84 7/8" (10 bucks)
Generally, you'd think those two numbers should be reversed.
DrH
Member
As I said concerning culling of spike deer, I don't think a bad year or a bad start means the animal will forever be small. Sometimes the fawn was born late, due to breeding of a yearling that came into estrus late, or an adult doe that just wasn't bred earlier. I saw a calf elk that was shot in early November that weighed less than 100 pounds, but was perfectly healthy. Whether such an animal survives a really bad winter is questionable, but just the same, it illustrates the vagaries of breeding among big game animals.
As someone said above, going into the winter in good condition makes a great difference, as the better the body condition the more energy can be put into horn or antler growth. But, an animal with the wrong genetics for horn length and mass probably isn't going to be a Boone and Crockett trophy even in the good years.
Many hunters, concentrating on horn or antler size, come to believe there is a relationship between horn size or antler size and genetic fitness, so the larger the horns or antlers the better the animal is genetically. Maybe yes, maybe no. I've seen smaller, more aggressive bucks run off bucks with larger horns and take over a herd, and in at least one case, a smaller buck with straight horns gored a Boone and Crockett buck behind the shoulder, punctured a lung, and killed the buck with larger horns.
Without knowing the nutritional content of the foods the antelope are eating in the Red Desert, we can't know whether those bucks should have bigger horns than the ones growing up where food is consistently good. Historically the genetics for big horns have been present in the Red Desert, but during the drought years of the 1990s the biggest bucks I heard of were coming from areas where there hadn't been much hunting and alfalfa was present. I tend to agree with Big Fin that you can find an antelope with big horns nearly anywhere if conditions are right, but history still shows that the big ones tend to come from the same places year after year.
One other thing we don't know is whether part of the genetic story is a tendency to produce larger horns at a younger age in some places and later in others. During the drought years I certainly saw a lot of bucks at check stations that were over 4 years old but had horn size I'd expect on two and three year old bucks.
As someone said above, going into the winter in good condition makes a great difference, as the better the body condition the more energy can be put into horn or antler growth. But, an animal with the wrong genetics for horn length and mass probably isn't going to be a Boone and Crockett trophy even in the good years.
Many hunters, concentrating on horn or antler size, come to believe there is a relationship between horn size or antler size and genetic fitness, so the larger the horns or antlers the better the animal is genetically. Maybe yes, maybe no. I've seen smaller, more aggressive bucks run off bucks with larger horns and take over a herd, and in at least one case, a smaller buck with straight horns gored a Boone and Crockett buck behind the shoulder, punctured a lung, and killed the buck with larger horns.
Without knowing the nutritional content of the foods the antelope are eating in the Red Desert, we can't know whether those bucks should have bigger horns than the ones growing up where food is consistently good. Historically the genetics for big horns have been present in the Red Desert, but during the drought years of the 1990s the biggest bucks I heard of were coming from areas where there hadn't been much hunting and alfalfa was present. I tend to agree with Big Fin that you can find an antelope with big horns nearly anywhere if conditions are right, but history still shows that the big ones tend to come from the same places year after year.
One other thing we don't know is whether part of the genetic story is a tendency to produce larger horns at a younger age in some places and later in others. During the drought years I certainly saw a lot of bucks at check stations that were over 4 years old but had horn size I'd expect on two and three year old bucks.
Eli,
Is is possible there has just been too much good genetics pulled out of those GMUs? Stands to reason if you are pulling a good percentage of trophies out of them, at some point the bucks with poorer genetics are going to be passing on their genes.
Is is possible there has just been too much good genetics pulled out of those GMUs? Stands to reason if you are pulling a good percentage of trophies out of them, at some point the bucks with poorer genetics are going to be passing on their genes.
EliAGrimmett
Member
I've talked to some biologists about that possibility and they've always told me that, not only do the does carry half the genetics, but the smaller bucks should have similar genetics to the larger bucks. I never really agreed with them on it.
I think in areas with small populations that can be a concern, but with giant areas with a lot of antelope it's much less likely to occur.
We've seen it happen in small areas and it usually happens, not because we kill off the big bucks, but because we eliminate the best bucks from certain age groups.
For instance - A ranch has 1 big 5 year old , 1 big 4 year old, 1 big 3 year old and 1 two year old. You have to kill 2 antelope and you kill the 5 year old and the 4 year old. The next season now you have 1 big 4 year old and 1 big 3 year old. Then you kill the 4 and the 3. The next season what do you have? As you can see pretty soon you'll run out of bucks old enough to be big. Obviously this can happen as the scale increases too but it's much tougher to determine the age groups and track what's going on. I think generally the drought and fawn recruitment will affect the age groups on a much larger scale, which in turn will affect how many large bucks are roaming around.
19A in Arizona is a good example too. Year after year in the 1990's there were tons of 90 inch bucks around. The population was around 1200-1600 (I'd have to look it up for the exact number). It didn't seem to matter how many were killed or which ones were killed, the next season there were always plenty of big bucks. Then, in 2002, one of the worst droughts ever hit and wiped out over 800 antelope. The unit never recovered to produce giants again. But, it wasn't because the drought wiped out the older age group bucks. They actually survived. The young bucks were wiped out. Then the hunters killed what was left of the older bucks during the seasons and the young bucks that were being born were being killed in the following seasons because they were all that was left. So they never got to get old enough to be big.
I think in areas with small populations that can be a concern, but with giant areas with a lot of antelope it's much less likely to occur.
We've seen it happen in small areas and it usually happens, not because we kill off the big bucks, but because we eliminate the best bucks from certain age groups.
For instance - A ranch has 1 big 5 year old , 1 big 4 year old, 1 big 3 year old and 1 two year old. You have to kill 2 antelope and you kill the 5 year old and the 4 year old. The next season now you have 1 big 4 year old and 1 big 3 year old. Then you kill the 4 and the 3. The next season what do you have? As you can see pretty soon you'll run out of bucks old enough to be big. Obviously this can happen as the scale increases too but it's much tougher to determine the age groups and track what's going on. I think generally the drought and fawn recruitment will affect the age groups on a much larger scale, which in turn will affect how many large bucks are roaming around.
19A in Arizona is a good example too. Year after year in the 1990's there were tons of 90 inch bucks around. The population was around 1200-1600 (I'd have to look it up for the exact number). It didn't seem to matter how many were killed or which ones were killed, the next season there were always plenty of big bucks. Then, in 2002, one of the worst droughts ever hit and wiped out over 800 antelope. The unit never recovered to produce giants again. But, it wasn't because the drought wiped out the older age group bucks. They actually survived. The young bucks were wiped out. Then the hunters killed what was left of the older bucks during the seasons and the young bucks that were being born were being killed in the following seasons because they were all that was left. So they never got to get old enough to be big.
