Podcast on wounding

[232401a]

... I didn't give any distances for anyone. It's up to everyone to make their own decisions...

But you did “give distances”.

Randy at Podcast @ 1:11:52 – “We have to start asking the media that are promoting 1000 yd shots…what is the purpose in that?” (seconds later, Randy included 800 yds in this discussion).

A rushed Randy Newberg shooting a trotting deer from a kneeling position (on shooting sticks) @400 yds is NOT substantially different than an 800 yd shot from a calm/collected prone (bipod) shooter on a stationary elk.

Randy, you ARE the media that you are calling out. They post that stuff for the same reason you do – money.

 

[Firedude]

An older Oklahoma study with 50% wounding rate (11 of 22) on deer when using traditionally archery - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gNnYRAGyN9oD-m2MyIyWx3GxmEpOdzf4/view

However of those wounded the report states only 3 died. I'm not saying it's a good thing to wound but it brings up an important thought. How do you report a "wounded but unrecovered." Notched tag?

You could greatly change actual survival data if you expand the numbers. Instead of 14% wounded and died you'd account for 50% unrecovered death every year. Doubling harvest rates essentially. Harvesting a deer later that was previously wounded can again show false total harvest. But you also can't ignore the 14%. It's a pretty small data set to make a determination but you see my point.

I think a good data collection would be a simple questions on a harvest report. "Did you wound and fail to recover any animals?" "Do you think the wound was fatal?" Then compare that to found, unrecovered animals. That would give you A TON of data IF people are honest. Wound rates, unrecovered and found later rates, and hunter judgment vs death rates. Is it perfect? No. But it would be important information before going further.

 

[Big Fin]

But you did “give distances”.

Randy at Podcast @ 1:11:52 – “We have to start asking the media that are promoting 1000 yd shots…what is the purpose in that?” (seconds later, Randy included 800 yds in this discussion).

I used numbers to ask the motivation of media members taking long distance shots when they could easily stalk closer, some even choosing to be further for their personal record. I could have used the term "long distance" rather than use distance examples to make my point.

I didn't make any statement of a firm distances that are a good/not good threshold. I'll let that be each person's decision.

A rushed Randy Newberg shooting a trotting deer from a kneeling position (on shooting sticks) @400 yds is NOT substantially different than an 800 yd shot from a calm/collected prone (bipod) shooter on a stationary elk.

As I said above, doing it over again, I would't take that shot. It was bad judgement in the heat of the moment, that luckily didn't have a bad outcome. Doesn't make it OK and I own that decision.

Randy, you ARE the media that you are calling out. They post that stuff for the same reason you do – money.

Yes, I am part of the media. And yes, I am calling out the media for continually promoting longer shots rather than the stalking skills to get closer. Being a producer of media does not negate me from having an opinion, one based on experience and observation, that promoting long distance shooting is not a responsible message by hunting media. That doing so encourages, even normalizes, people to take shots beyond what their skill level consistently allows for.

I get that some want to use my position in the media, or prior bad shot decisions/outcomes I've admitted to as a way to, to negate a message I feel is important for hunting. Fine for them to take that position. I'll continue to use my platforms to encourage discussions on topics I think are beneficial.

 

[rogerthat]

But you did “give distances”.

Randy at Podcast @ 1:11:52 – “We have to start asking the media that are promoting 1000 yd shots…what is the purpose in that?” (seconds later, Randy included 800 yds in this discussion).

A rushed Randy Newberg shooting a trotting deer from a kneeling position (on shooting sticks) @400 yds is NOT substantially different than an 800 yd shot from a calm/collected prone (bipod) shooter on a stationary elk.

Randy, you ARE the media that you are calling out. They post that stuff for the same reason you do – money.

What’s the big deal if someone throws out distances? My number is 400 on a big game critter. Past that I question if it’s hunting. That’s just me. Everyone has an opinion but in the moment of truth you should know what you’re capable. If 800 or 1000 yards rock solid on a standing critter is your thing…well let’r buck. No one but you, god, and the critter (maybe a hunting buddy) are going to ever know the difference…unless you come on a hunting forum and tell people…which I don’t recommend

 

[sclancy27]

I have no problem believing 50% wounding rate with archery, especially with elk. I've got a lot of hard rules now on the types of shots I take on elk because I have hit several that were recovered the next day or not at all.

I've also shot several bulls with broadheads in them, only 1 elk had a bullet in it. Just observations over a lot of animals. I know we can all be better, that's for sure.

 

[HSi-ESi]

IMO, I think there is a significant amount of wounding loss where the hunters actually did a lot right and just came up short.

IMO, if your podcast and stories shared on this thread like mine, can help recover more animals, its worth having the discussion.

Here's an example of this.

I had a situation in my twenties when I shot a cow elk at close range (under 10 yards). I had gotten in front of the herd and the wind was good and they walked up to me. I picked out the cow and sighted down the side of the barrel. I 100% knew it was a heart shot. The herd blew up at the shot and it was chaos for 15 seconds or so, elk were running right past me in every direction. There was over a foot of real crusty snow. I wasn't able to pinpoint which direction my elk went or what tracks were the cow I shot, couldn't find any spots of blood. I spent over 4 hours patterning in the sparse timber. Most of the elk had gone downhill, some sidehill and I had focused on those groups of tracks. There were couple that went uphill - and I'd tracked those for a couple of hundred yards at one point but turned around. Part of my mindset was that a heart-shot elk wouldn't have gone that far uphill. I left when it got dark and came back in the next day with my Dad.

I went farther up the hill following those tracks - and about 50 yards beyond where I turned around the day before, I found my first drop of blood. The blood trail then turned into just a steady stream that anyone could have followed and I found the cow piled up, about 200 yards past where the blood started. It had been fairly cold the night (15-ish) - but I gutted her to do the post-mortem and wasn't too confident on the meat. I had shot her through the heart.

We drug her out (maybe 2ish miles) and I took her straight to a processor. The processor said no way as it's spoiled. I called the game warden, explained the situation and he walked me through what to do. I drove up another forest road, skinned and took what I could.

Some obvious things I did wrong that day - not tracking farther uphill because of my pre-conceived notion that heart-shot animals don't go uphill and not just skinning and de-boning the meat in the field when I immediately found the elk the next day were the 2 biggest mistakes I made. Out of 30 elk, that's the only one I've hit and not recovered the same day - and I would consider this a case of wounding loss. At the end of the conversation with the warden, he asked if I wanted a replacement tag, but I declined.

 

[David58]

I shot my first elk at 400 yards. Then tracked it for 4-5 hours before killing it. Taught me that, even though I had a wall full of medals and plaques from shooting my muzzleloaders, a 300 Win Mag did not turn me into a long distance shooter.

Today, the range where I shoot goes to 300 yards. Hard stop. I cannot practice at 400, won't shoot there. Since I sight using MPBR, with my '06 I am maxed at about 270. I am comfortable with that, but only from a rest. I need to do a lot more shooting with that rifle to be solid, but am guessing that my off-hand accuracy is no better than my muzzleloader, because it doesnt sit as heavy and steady as the ML.

Lots of words to say that since I can only practice to a given distance, that is my hard stop. I am too old to go duck walking through rhododendron and reprod to find a wounded animal.

David
NM

 

[antlerradar]

2) Point of aim, such as head, neck, chest, other.

Just to make you
My friend that works on the Custer ran into a group of "hunters" that had a contest between friends going. Who could make the longest head shot on a doe.

 

[SaskHunter]

I honestly think wounding rates may be vastly under estimated than over estimated.

I rarely hear a single rifle shot anymore...its 2, 3, 5, 10, clear up to over 20.

I always wonder how those slinging lead can even keep track of the same animal they started shooting at? Are they hitting them all? How far away are the animals they're blazing away at? Do they follow up?

Its unbelievable...

This, I pretty much forced a stranger to go look for blood after watching them take 3 shots at a group of does.

She was just going to call it since she "hadn't seen any hits". So I actually went and looked with her to see if we could find blood. While we were looking, I was chatting with her and turns out she was pretty new to hunting and that her and her husband kept bugging each other with all their misses...

I can't count how many times I've seen guys take shots at animal without even going to look for blood, especially poachers, if they don't drop within sight, not worth the trouble of getting caught...

 

[OntarioHunter]

I have no problem believing 50% wounding rate with archery, especially with elk. I've got a lot of hard rules now on the types of shots I take on elk because I have hit several that were recovered the next day or not at all.

I've also shot several bulls with broadheads in them, only 1 elk had a bullet in it. Just observations over a lot of animals. I know we can all be better, that's for sure.

First, let me tip my hat to you for being honest. Appreciated. "Several recovered next day [for elk = wasted animal except for horns] or not at all"? That should have spoken volumes to you about hunting elk with archery. And you didn't hang it up? Every meat processor I have known echoes your findings: lots of errant broadheads and very few bullets. I only encountered this once with the last bull moose I shot. It had been hit twice before with what appeared to be .22 magnum. Once in the neck, which mostly blew up in the hide, and once in the hump, which did essentially no damage (a moose's hump is almost entirely vertebrate bone). Undoubtedly the work of a preseason "grouse hunter" poacher. I estimate that a .22 magnum probably has about the same lethality potential as a broadhead. I admit to shooting that moose five times. The first in the neck, because in the deep snow laying down that's the only reasonably good target I had. It put him down. As I was returning to pick up my pack that I dropped during the stalk, I suddenly felt something was wrong and looked back. The bull was up but very sick. I put another one in his neck, not wanting to waste any meat. Mistake #1. Neck shots on big animals like that are as often as not nonlethal. Down it went. Back at the pack I turned to see it was back up again! And moving. I shot and knocked it sideways but it kept going into the thick timber. I tried another shot at it on the run and missed. At the bed there was blood splattered all over. On the track I found a big patch of long hair scattered on the snow, obviously from the third shot. He didn't go far before laying down next to a tiny creek in the trees. The bull was facing away so I put the crosshairs on his head. Bugger stood up just as I shot. Crap! I knew where that bullet went: right in his arse. Now my gun was empty so I ran back to the pack. Pulled out the box of ammo and stunned to see it was the wrong one. Just empty cases for reloading. Mistake #2. Wait ... I pulled the tray all the way out and there was ONE loaded shell at the very back. Whew! Back on the track I discovered the moose had entered a fairly recent cutting unit on the other side of the creek. I could see for a couple of miles but no moose in sight. Very quickly I ran onto a bloody pile of poop which confirmed it was shot in the butt. Bleeding a lot I didn't expect it would go far. After a hundred yards I found the moose laying in a shallow spot. He was head up facing away from me. Okay, this shot MUST kill him or I'll be stuck trying to finish the job with a very crappy Schrade Old Timer knife. I walked up for a close shot in the head. Figured that moose didn't have enough gas left to get up. Mistake #3!! I was less than ten yards when he jumped up. Just as he turned for me I shot him under the right eye. Happened so fast I didn't have time to get excited. Not sure if I even looked through the Springfield's 3x Weaver. Shot seven times total (including the poacher's hits) before the bull was dead. And I don't think two pounds of meat was lost. First two neck shots were almost in the same hole. One bullet was lodged in the spinal cord. Amazing! The third shot essentially bounced off his hip (angling away) and hardly scratched him. Fourth shot missed and fifth shot hit him square in the poop chute ... thankfully! The .22 mag in the hump was a bit infected but no meat up there anyway. I got lucky ... actually lots of lucky. Had it been earlier in the season and no snow, I very easily could have lost that animal. Another reason (a very GOOD reason) I prefer hunting late after snow is on the ground.

Recovering any animal that isn't dropped in its tracks can be dicey, sometimes even if it's well hit. And has anyone ever heard of an elk or deer knocked over by an arrow? I haven't. I do it all the time with my 30-06. Generally, bow hunters are out early in the season when tracking conditions are most difficult. I see absolutely nothing wrong picking on them with exclusive regulations to discourage wasting game. License their arrows as I suggested above. I strongly suspect doing that would very quickly weed out the chaf in that sport. I also suspect the big box outdoors vendors would put big bucks up to oppose it.

 

[sclancy27]

First, let me tip my hat to you for being honest. Appreciated. "Several recovered next day [for elk = wasted animal except for horns] or not at all"? That should have spoken volumes to you about hunting elk with archery. And you didn't hang it up? Every meat processor I have known echoes your findings: lots of errant broadheads and very few bullets. I only encountered this once with the last bull moose I shot. It had been hit twice before with what appeared to be .22 magnum. Once in the neck, which mostly blew up in the hide, and once in the hump, which did essentially no damage (a moose's hump is almost entirely vertebrate bone). Undoubtedly the work of a preseason "grouse hunter" poacher. I estimate that a .22 magnum probably has about the same lethality potential as a broadhead. I admit to shooting that moose five times. The first in the neck, because in the deep snow laying down that's the only reasonably good target I had. It put him down. As I was returning to pick up my pack that I dropped during the stalk, I suddenly felt something was wrong and looked back. The bull was up but very sick. I put another one in his neck, not wanting to waste any meat. Mistake #1. Neck shots on big animals like that are as often as not nonlethal. Down it went. Back at the pack I turned to see it was back up again! And moving. I shot and knocked it sideways but it kept going into the thick timber. I tried another shot at it on the run and missed. At the bed there was blood splattered all over. On the track I found a big patch of long hair scattered on the snow, obviously from the third shot. He didn't go far before laying down next to a tiny creek in the trees. The bull was facing away so I put the crosshairs on his head. Bugger stood up just as I shot. Crap! I knew where that bullet went: right in his arse. Now my gun was empty so I ran back to the pack. Pulled out the box of ammo and stunned to see it was the wrong one. Just empty cases for reloading. Mistake #2. Wait ... I pulled the tray all the way out and there was ONE loaded shell at the very back. Whew! Back on the track I discovered the moose had entered a fairly recent cutting unit on the other side of the creek. I could see for a couple of miles but no moose in sight. Very quickly I ran onto a bloody pile of poop which confirmed it was shot in the butt. Bleeding a lot I didn't expect it would go far. After a hundred yards I found the moose laying in a shallow spot. He was head up facing away from me. Okay, this shot MUST kill him or I'll be stuck trying to finish the job with a very crappy Schrade Old Timer knife. I walked up for a close shot in the head. Figured that moose didn't have enough gas left to get up. Mistake #3!! I was less than ten yards when he jumped up. Just as he turned for me I shot him under the right eye. Happened so fast I didn't have time to get excited. Not sure if I even looked through the Springfield's 3x Weaver. Shot seven times total (including the poacher's hits) before the bull was dead. And I don't think two pounds of meat were lost. First two neck shots were almost in the same hole. One bullet was lodged in the spinal cord. Amazing! The third shot essentially bounced off his hip (angling away) and hardly scratched him. Fourth shot missed and fifth shot hit him square in the poop chute ... thankfully! The .22 mag in the hump was a bit infected but no meat up there anyway. I got lucky ... actually lots of lucky. Had it been earlier in the season and no snow, I very easily could have lost that animal. Another reason (a very GOOD reason) I prefer hunting late after snow is on the ground.

Recovering any animal that isn't dropped in its tracks can be dicey, sometimes even if it's well hit. And has anyone ever heard of an elk or deer knocked over by an arrow? I haven't. I do it all the time with my 30-06. Generally, bow hunters are out early in the season when tracking conditions are most difficult. I see absolutely nothing wrong picking on them with exclusive regulations to discourage wasting game. License their arrows as I suggested above. I strongly suspect doing that would very quickly weed out the chaf in that sport. I also suspect the big box outdoors vendors would put big bucks up to oppose it.

Strangely the only meat I have lost on elk recovered the next day was about 8-10lbs on a downside ham of a bull in the breaks.

The biggest thing I have learned about archery and elk is they are tough as nails and I need to have hard rules about the shots I take and the equipment I use.

 

[MColemanMT]

Really enjoyed this one. Its something I think about as I've gotten more into archery hunting and heard a lot of stories of arrows flying and elk not recovered. I know of 3 in my friend hunter group in the last 2 years. One we saw the bull on the hoof later and he looked fine, one got bumped by another hunter and never seen again, one was a loss of blood then bad weather set in. I have seen 2 wounded bulls on trail cam, one with an arrow in his gut in June! I have personally only lost one animal, a doe whitetail shot with a muzzleloader. Found her the next day but meat had spoiled. I didn't shoot another deer that year. That was a long time ago before I had really developed my personal ethics about hunting.

 

[TheTone]

I can only think of maybe two unrecovered archery critters I’ve found in my life; I truly don’t know the number of shot and left or not found rifle ones; 50+ easily though

Plus I’m guessing we get way more flock shooting and over limits with rifle shooters. We got people here that openly post about it even

 

[mtmuley]

I can only think of maybe two unrecovered archery critters I’ve found in my life; I truly don’t know the number of shot and left or not found rifle ones; 50+ easily though

Plus I’m guessing we get way more flock shooting and over limits with rifle shooters. We got people here that openly post about it even

You have found 50 plus animals lost to a rifle shot? Or did I miss something? mtmuley

 

[TheTone]

You have found 50 plus animals lost to a rifle shot? Or did I miss something? mtmuley

Yeah

 

[FREAK]

The amount of times I’ve seen a guy clean miss an animal I think is worth adding to the discussion. I’ve seen it 3 times just this season. To me that’s just a guy getting lucky and not wounding one.

I think target practicing can only give you a certain % of the feeling you get when shooting at a live animal. I know the real world experience is where I’ve learned a lot more about my shooting abilities than at a range. I think it’s important to take the lessons learned from each shot and use those experiences to improve.

 

[Mallardsx2]

I think people take riskier shots because they feel that the tag is not achievable any time soon.

I’m not saying that I feel that way, I’m just saying that I feel a lot of people feel that way.


“This tag took me 10 years to draw. I’m at least shooting” kind of scenario. Results In a lot of poor decisions.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I think people take riskier shots because they feel that the tag is not achievable any time soon.

I’m not saying that I feel that way, I’m just saying that I feel a lot of people feel that way.


“This tag took me 10 years to draw. I’m at least shooting” kind of scenario. Results In a lot of poor decisions.

And I think the chaf would be much less inclined to take riskier shots if that precious tag might get squandered on a lost animal and they go home with nothing. Or lose the opportunity to hunt for a couple of years. If the law required punching out on lost animals, I would certainly be checking out anyone I saw taking 400+ yard pot shots. Cell phones are great. Photo of their license then go check for blood after they leave. Then call LE to see if they punched out. Another reason why I'm also in favor of mandatory harvest reporting. I think it would help. Can't hurt.

 

[David58]

In concept, I really like the idea of wounding and losing an animal being a punch out. In reality, I think it would change nothing - those that are wired that way are already doing it, those that aren't, won't.

David
NM

 

[Don Fischer]

I think it would be difficult to enforce a regulation requiring rifle hunters to punch out their tag if they wound and lose an animal. However, I do believe it may be possible to make a reasonably effective regulation for archery hunting and let's be honest we all know that is where the worst offenders lie. Archery tags can be issued with a packet of decals with license number on them. The hunter must stick the decal on the shaft of each arrow he uses for hunting. Yes, the arrows often pass through the wounded animal but sometimes they don't. If a carcass is found with an arrow stuck in it, it would be an easy matter for LE to track down the hunter and ensure he's punched out. Any hunter who draws blood and doesn't immediately find the animal or arrow would be very much persuaded to punch his tag. Better than nothing.

In Africa you draw blood, you pay the trophy fee. Period. Often a farm hand is along to ensure guide and client follow the rule.

In Africa don't they require you have a guide? I've known a lot of guy's over the years that would not punch the tag if they wounded something and thought no one was looking. Problem with the honor system and human's is that humans's are human. Might be better if a hunter was limited to one round for the season! Ya got two rounds on you you get a ticket! Pretty much everything about hunting and fishing is based on the honor system!

I called in on a poacher years ago and they actually got the guy. He'd shot two deer and before the cop got there his dad had put his tag on the second deer. Cop told them he had a witness and in fact I did go talk to the guy before calling in so they knew he had them. The cop was a friend of the guy that did the shooting and gave him a ticket. Then he took the second deer and re-instated the dad's tag. Seem's the guy that did it was a friend of the cop! Let's be honest here though. If I knew the guy and I knew that he simply needed the meat for his family, I most likely would not have called in but helped him get them out.

Hunting is sport with rules. Imagine a football or basketball game with rules and no ref's! The honor system! Hunting is primarly sport also. I can't believe how much is spent on it every year. So what if you were required to have a licensed guide along on your hunt to enforce the rules? Similar to Africa. Be a spike in poaching by people that actually do hunt only for the meat and the new poacher's are gonna be a lot better at it than the old poacher's! So how's the poaching inplaces like Africa? Bet a lot of the poaching there is done for commercial reason's. I think I also read that in Africa the hunter doesn't get the meat, goes to the poor villages?What if you didn't get the meat here? All goes to poor that can't afford it. Fish and game here in Oregon wanted to rid us of hog's so they flew and shot them from helocopters, left a lot of meat on the ground for preditors that also destroy livestock! Matter of fact they left all of it! Fix one problem start another. Hunter's weren't much help at all but, could have been. Rancher's were not allowed to charge anyone to hunt hogs on their land and were required to report any seen. Great resource there to control the hogs gone to waste by law! BTW, I'd bet they didn't get all the hogs!