Podcast on wounding

[Big Fin]

Here is one of Craig's from the MPG Ranch that is online - https://www.mpgranch.com/dispatches...or every 100,as hunter-caused wounding losses.

 

[Big Fin]

An older Oklahoma study with 50% wounding rate (11 of 22) on deer when using traditionally archery - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gNnYRAGyN9oD-m2MyIyWx3GxmEpOdzf4/view

 

[TheTone]

I'll try to post up some of the links I had read as research for the podcast. Some are older. Some on deer. A few on elk.

This is an older one from Idaho on elk https://www.jstor.org/stable/3809273


121 elk collared, 69 dead, 43 rifle kills, 2 archery kills, 8 unrecovered rifle deaths, 4 unrecovered archery deaths. 45 recovered elk from hunting and 12 unrecovered dead from hunting. 12/(45+12) = 21% of the collared elk that died from hunting were unrecovered. Did not state how many were hit and survived, as they only counted the dead elk.

I’m guessing things have changed a lot since 1991 across all the factors

 

[Big Fin]

More recent elk study in Kentucky on all types of elk mortality on 237 collared elk - https://bioone.org/journals/wildlif...k-Cervus-canadensis-in/10.2981/wlb.00459.full

 

[Big Fin]

I’m guessing things have changed a lot since 1991 across all the factors

I agree. Some good - better tools for hunting. Some bad - emphasis on longer shots that might mitigate the benefits of better tools.

 

[TheTone]

I agree. Some good - better tools for hunting. Some bad - emphasis on longer shots that might mitigate the benefits of better tools.

It would be an interesting study to replicate today especially across multiple habitat types.

 

[atlas]

Seeing some of the longer archery shots on social media is especially concerning. Archery hunting already has such a high risk of things going totally wrong, and if the acceptable distance people take shots at increases it's going to lead to a lot more elk for the birds.

I think I saw a video Aaron Snyder put on his Instagram of him or a friend shooting an aoudad at 100 yards.

 

[Nameless Range]

Fascinating podcast. Thanks for sharing.

Though I don't think that Hunt Talk is a very representative cross section of hunters as a whole for many things, if we looked honestly into our own histories, and added up the stats when it comes to wounding ( though in almost all instances we don't know if the animal perished) we could probably extrapolate some disturbing numbers.

I say that from personal experience. A while back there was a thread where many put up the total numbers of animals they have killed of each species. When I tap into my memories, many of which are unpleasant, and think about animals I have hit but not recovered, that proportion isn't something I am proud of. That said, I do feel that I am a much better hunter today, in terms of the choices I make and execute and the shots I wish I wouldn't have taken, than I was in the first decade of my hunting life.

When we remove emotion, I suppose it is just another mortality stat we don't think about enough. Animal vs vehicles being another I think has an enormous impact on some populations locally.

 

[Big Fin]

Fascinating podcast. Thanks for sharing.

That's helpful feedback. If you read the small email sample that came in the last two days, you'd not think many folks found it "fascinating."

 

[bigsky2]

I recently went aoudad hunting in Texas. The three guys I shared camp with were all willing to take shots over 600 yards. Between the three of them, 6 rams were shot, and 3 were recovered. The guy who I would have guessed was the best shot (he is a gunsmith and shoots competitively) wounded two of them. It was an eye opener for me and made me wonder how much wounding actually goes on.

Watch some Coues deer hunting videos on Youtube, its disturbing how bad some people whiff on their first few shots.

 

[BuzzH]

I honestly think wounding rates may be vastly under estimated than over estimated.

I rarely hear a single rifle shot anymore...its 2, 3, 5, 10, clear up to over 20.

I always wonder how those slinging lead can even keep track of the same animal they started shooting at? Are they hitting them all? How far away are the animals they're blazing away at? Do they follow up?

Its unbelievable...

 

[FREAK]

I'm wondering if that might be MPG data. Most hunting on the ranch is for cows by many inexperienced and youth hunters. Like Randy said, I'll ask Craig for his data. Can't hurt. mtmuley

Yeah he said in the podcast it was kind a perfect storm that made up the 50%. 20 animals killed from the ranch he helped coordinate hunting on, 10 died of wound loss. 5 archery, 5 rifle.

Pretty small sample size but later he stated an estimated wound loss of 20-30%, Randy stated a study that estimated wound loss at 10.7% I believe?

 

[HSi-ESi]

I'm excited to listen to this one - I'll hold off on my comments until after.

 

[88man]

Lots of bow hunters call a stuck wounded animal a miss when it is not recovered.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I'll try to post up some of the links I had read as research for the podcast. Some are older. Some on deer. A few on elk.

This is an older one from Idaho on elk https://www.jstor.org/stable/3809273


121 elk collared, 69 dead, 43 rifle kills, 2 archery kills, 8 unrecovered rifle deaths, 4 unrecovered archery deaths. 45 recovered elk from hunting and 12 unrecovered dead from hunting. 12/(45+12) = 21% of the collared elk that died from hunting were unrecovered. Did not state how many were hit and survived, as they only counted the dead elk.

Interesting. What stands out for me is the number of not recovered vs recovered. Note that one fifth of the rifle kills were not recovered while 200% of archery kills were not recovered. Wow! Of course the sample sizes are small (especially for archery) making any analysis almost anecdotal. While the actual percentages in that study may not be precise, the threads I am reading on here and other forums seem to point to much higher reported incidents of lost wounded game by archery hunters. Also, although I'm sure there is no way of knowing without voluntary reporting (good luck with that!), I very strongly suspect the majority of lost game are animals shot in the last hour of legal hunting. Something could definitely be done about that in the regs (particularly for archery). As an example, uplands can be hunted up to a half hour after sunset. This may be okay for most species but only the rooster pheasants are legal to shoot. Unless the bird squawks, it can be very difficult to determine if it's a rooster during that last half hour of shooting, especially if it's a cloudy day or hunting into the setting sun. I strongly expect the majority if not all the dead hens my dog is finding in the field were shot by hunters in the waning minutes of daylight. Up here we can hunt waterfowl to a half hour after sunset which is nonsense for bird recovery, especially over water. I suppose as far as geese are concerned, the numbers are now so high as to present serious environmental concern, so some lost birds going to waste isn't such a bad thing as far as management is concerned. They either to die at the hands of hunters or through natural disasters due to over population.

So is there any solution? I think regulating mandatory punch out for wounded game is definitely acceptable. Sure, it's more or less on the honor system, but the regulation may be enough to make some hunters rethink their ethics. Better than nothing. My suggestion above re essentially licensing arrows would be more enforceable. Not perfect but definitely should give archery hunters some serious cause to reflect before taking a shot. I also think archery shooting hours should close down WELL before sunset. Weather is typically warm that time of year = quick meat spoilage and no snow for following a blood trail. Tracking a wounded animal can be difficult in the best of times but after dark during archery season it is extremely dicey.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I recently went aoudad hunting in Texas. The three guys I shared camp with were all willing to take shots over 600 yards. Between the three of them, 6 rams were shot, and 3 were recovered. The guy who I would have guessed was the best shot (he is a gunsmith and shoots competitively) wounded two of them. It was an eye opener for me and made me wonder how much wounding actually goes on.

Watch some Coues deer hunting videos on Youtube, its disturbing how bad some people whiff on their first few shots.

Presumably those hunters had to pay for the rams they didn't recover? Yikes! Mine in Africa had a trophy fee of about $2500. Just drawing blood is enough to require I write a cheque. I had worked all summer to get my 30-06 shooting reasonably at 300 yards which I anticipated might be necessary for Barbary sheep. I actually passed on two rams at that distance. Didn't trust myself and only budgeted for one Barbary sheep. Then I missed one at just under 200 yards. Shot over his back. Couldn't get steady enough on the sticks. Glad I missed! Enough of that shit. Late in the afternoon I killed one at 55 yards after a long and very memorable stalk. He didn't run fifteen yards before piling up. Shot through the heart.

 

[Nicoli7153]

Great podcast, the biggest take away for me is to make sure to train as realistic as possible, the old axiom .... train like you fight.

 

[woods89]

Great podcast, the biggest take away for me is to make sure to train as realistic as possible, the old axiom .... train like you fight.

Bingo. And yet people think I'm an extremist for shooting 300 to 500 centerfire rounds a year away from the bench. I have two pretty good animals from the last 2 years that I believe are a direct result of shortening the time it takes to make an effective shot through realistic practice.

My Achilles heel is archery, though. I like shooting rifles more than my bow, and I have to be more committed to similar archery practice.

I'm going to listen to the podcast as soon as I get a chance.

 

[FREAK]

It’s refreshing to hear some opposition towards the long range shooting trend. I know too many guys that shoot a couple rounds at 100 and say “should be good out to 350.” Same with archery. A week before season they fling a few arrows and say “nothing changed from last year should be good out to 60.”

I joined an archery league this winter for the first time. Talk about a humbling experience. It’s easy to be a good shot when you’re practicing by yourself in an open field. Start keeping score in a pressured environment with peers/friends and it really adds another layer. It’s been fun and enlightening to have a fraction of that feeling you get when a bull is standing in front of you and seeing how it impacts your performance.

 

[Fire_9]

The distance thing is something that is always beaten to death. Can we at least all agree that one persons effective range can be vastly different than another’s and that it’s ok for them to be different? Just because someone limits themselves to 200-300 doesn’t mean they are more ethical than someone that sets that limit at 800 and is actually proficient. Take a zero off those numbers and apply it to archery as well.