Nra

[Calif. Hunter]

I know this title will generate some interest....

We had a guest speaker the other night at my club's regular meeting. He is "the guy" who is leading the fight against the lead ban in California's "Condor Zone" and the tree-huggers' push to expand it to other areas and to include shotgun ammo for upland game in the lead-free regulations. (You all know how many quail gutpiles condors eat, right?)

He has attacked the very studies used by the condor-philes, which show that the number 1 cause of death in wild condors are power lines. They either crash into them or land on them and cross two lines, etc. The main cause of lack of breeding success is DDE - the trace material of DDT. Also, inbreeding - one of the "successful" breeding pairs is a father breeding with his daughter.

He also said that the major funder of this fight is the NRA. Just one copy of a report cost over $5,000. He needs copies, obviously, in order to contest the findings. The government often resists providing the copies. Without the NRA, there would be no organized opposition to the lead ammo ban. (The CA Rifle and Pistol Association also helps, but does not have the funds that the NRA has provided.) There have been over 50,000 pages of reports and studies filed - at a dollar a page for copies.

The chief biologist at the DFG has stated that he cannot support the claim that lead posioning is killing condors. (He is the one who provided the info on mortality rates among "wild" condors.) By the way, there are no free, native-born condors - they are all "stocked." When a chick does get hatched in the wild, it is taken and reared in a pen.

Anyway, I found it interesting - particularly since so many on here swear that the NRA does nothing for hunters and is worthless. (Generally followed by comments about how stupid anyone who supports the NRA is...... )

 

[JoseCuervo]

How does fighting a lead-ban help hunters?

 

[Calif. Hunter]

lead ammo ban

expand it to other areas and to include shotgun ammo for upland game in the lead-free regulations.

How much lead-free .22 LR ammo do you have? It seems to me that you have posted that you hunt with Nosler Partitions. You can't do that in the Condor zone. You can't shoot ground squirrels with a .22 LR.

 

[buffybr]

How does fighting a lead-ban help hunters?

OK, I'm new to this Forum, but I've been shooting and hunting for over 50 years, so I know I'll step on some toes, but that has to be one of the dumbest questions that I've ever heard (or read) a hunter ask.

One answer is cost. Lead is a basic element that is found naturally in our environment. For centuries, lead has provided an effective and relatively inexpensive projectile for firearms.

A cost comparison from a popular mail order shooting catalog shows that rifle reloaders can expect to pay 2 1/2 times or more for lead free bullets than they would pay for lead/copper bullets. For shotgun reloaders, "non-toxic" shot sells for up to 20 times the cost of lead shot. There is a similar ratio for the cost of factory loaded rifle cartridges and shotshell. I do not know of a "non-toxic" alternative bullet for lead .22 rimfire shells.

For the occasional shooter who only buys 1 or 2 boxes of shells a year, this cost is not that big of a deal, especially in comparison to the cost of the rest of the hunt. The biggest impact of this high cost is in practice. First of all, I don't think most hunters practice enough, and at $2-$3 or more per lead free rifle cartridge or at $1.50 or more per "non-toxic" shotshell, people will do even less practice. Ultimately this results hunters that are poorer shots and missed or worse, wounded and lost animals.

The "greenies" and anti hunters got their foot in the door with the ban of lead shot for waterfowl hunting. Then they expanded it to include a ban of lead shot for upland game bird hunting on Federal wildlife refuges. Then they got a ban on rifle hunting bullets containing lead in a portion of the Condor's range because a Condor might eat a gut pile of a big game animal that a hunter shot that might contain fragments of lead. Then they got a ban on ALL lead bullets in southern California. Then they...the list continues until they HAVE BANNED ALL HUNTING AND SHOOTING!

How does fighting a lead-ban help hunters? The lead-ban is just another back door approach to stop all shooting and hunting. We should ALL fight it!

 

[noharleyyet]

that has to be one of the dumbest questions that I've ever heard (or read) a hunter ask.

...just wait, it gets better.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

that has to be one of the dumbest questions that I've ever heard (or read) a hunter ask.

It won't be the last, either.

 

[JoseCuervo]

One answer is cost. Lead is a basic element that is found naturally in our environment. For centuries, lead has provided an effective and relatively inexpensive projectile for firearms.

You think the NRA's mission is to keep Ammo cheap? Wouldn't hunters have more money to buy non-toxic ammo if they did not waste money funding the NRA and answering all the stupid pleas for money from the NRA-ILA?

Harming the environment to save money is one of the stupidest replies I have ever read.

 

[AZ402]

...just wait, it gets better.

See........^^^^

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Originally Posted by noharleyyet
...just wait, it gets better.

Harming the environment to save money is one of the stupidest replies I have ever read.

See........^^^^

A valiant attempt at a save, though.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Cali,

Are you against all the lead bans on fishing weights? Is the NRA defending your right to fish?

 

[DRAFTSTUD]

JC, If the fighting of a lead ban brings to light the real causes of Condor mortality, would that qualify as as helping both the Hunter and Condor. As a hunter I really get a kick out of seeing the things that make up the envirorment that I am hunting in, be it a bear or a Condor. Enacting laws banning lead on faulty science is in no ones best interest. John

 

[Bio Bo]

You think the NRA's mission is to keep Ammo cheap? Wouldn't hunters have more money to buy non-toxic ammo if they did not waste money funding the NRA and answering all the stupid pleas for money from the NRA-ILA?

Harming the environment to save money is one of the stupidest replies I have ever read.

You ever heard of galena? That's where most of the lead in the world originates. It's part of an igneous rock suite that is found in various places in the world. I'm sure condors and S.Ca. have encountered it long before the 1st lead shot ever hit the ground.
As for banning lead shot/ bullets/ fishing weights, the duck hunting ban is the only one that has any logical basis to it, because it was discovered that the ducks habit of scooping up slime from the muddy surface of the marsh for food resulted in them ingesting the lead shot that had fallen to the ground. A condor is a scavenger, right? I never heard of them sifting mud for food.
As for the water supply argument, industrial polution is a much more lethal participant in our environment than lead ammunition or fishing weights. Maybe you should be more concerned about drinking Cuervo? Patron and Comemerativo are much better, IMO...

 

[mtmiller]

He is "the guy" who is leading the fight against the lead ban in California's "Condor Zone" and the tree-huggers' push to expand it to other areas and to include shotgun ammo for upland game in the lead-free regulations. (You all know how many quail gutpiles condors eat, right?)

Cali, are you telling me the lead-free shot is based on the Condor?

Just one copy of a report cost over $5,000. He needs copies, obviously, in order to contest the findings. The government often resists providing the copies.

Sorry, but this sounds like BS. A $5,000 copy of a report....gov't denial of a FOIA request for a copy.

The chief biologist at the DFG has stated that he cannot support the claim that lead posioning is killing condors. (He is the one who provided the info on mortality rates among "wild" condors.)

He might want to look at peer reviewed science that would state the contrary.

 

[mtmiller]

You ever heard of galena? That's where most of the lead in the world originates. It's part of an igneous rock suite that is found in various places in the world. I'm sure condors and S.Ca. have encountered it long before the 1st lead shot ever hit the ground.

Yep, the igneous eating condors died out eons ago. Good call.

A condor is a scavenger, right? I never heard of them sifting mud for food.

Have you heard of them eating carrion? Connect the dots yet?

 

[Bio Bo]

Yep, the igneous eating condors died out eons ago. Good call.



Have you heard of them eating carrion? Connect the dots yet?

Yeh, I have. But if you're talking about them possibly eating some lead in the carcass, that's pretty far fetched. Could happen, I suppose, but unlikely. Probably about as unlikely as them eating an igneous rock.
Point is, the lead has been out there longer than the condors, mixing into the environment. But then, you knew that, didn't you?
Acid rain from LA polution is a whole lot more likely to be the source of lead in condors than any bullet in a carcass, IMO. But there will, no doubt, always be those who can't see it that way.

 

[JoseCuervo]

As for banning lead shot/ bullets/ fishing weights, the duck hunting ban is the only one that has any logical basis to it, because it was discovered that the ducks habit of scooping up slime from the muddy surface of the marsh for food resulted in them ingesting the lead shot that had fallen to the ground. A condor is a scavenger, right? I never heard of them sifting mud for food.
As for the water supply argument, industrial polution is a much more lethal participant in our environment than lead ammunition or fishing weights. Maybe you should be more concerned about drinking Cuervo? Patron and Comemerativo are much better, IMO...

You don't think the manufacture of ammo is "industrial polution"? What other industry allows their product to be disposed of randomly around the countryside? At least Pepsi tries to get you to dispose of their aluminum soda cans in a responsible manner.

Enacting laws banning lead on faulty science is in no ones best interest. John

Just exactly what "faulty science" says lead is a hazardous material??? I am guessing you got your Barstool Biology Degree the same place as Cali and Bio Bo. You can't even go buy a new computer for your business that has any lead in it, that new printer you need to print your drawings won't have any lead in it, but, yet somehow you now have knowledge that lead is not hazardous???

I always laugh at old people who are afraid of science.

 

[mtmiller]

Yeh, I have. But if you're talking about them possibly eating some lead in the carcass, that's pretty far fetched. Could happen, I suppose, but unlikely. Probably about as unlikely as them eating an igneous rock.
Point is, the lead has been out there longer than the condors, mixing into the environment. But then, you knew that, didn't you?
Acid rain from LA polution is a whole lot more likely to be the source of lead in condors than any bullet in a carcass, IMO. But there will, no doubt, always be those who can't see it that way.

You might be right on the igneous rock diet. I scholar googled "raptors lead poison rock" and got over 3,000 results. I did the same with "raptors lead poison bullet" and only got 850 or so.

I guess I got lucky when I found a golden eagle about 8 years ago. Very sick and easy to catch since he had a good deal of lead in him. Fortunately the Raptor Center in Bozeman fixed him up. He had some large peices of lead in his system, presumably from ground squirrel carcasses. That being said, I don't know how common it is, but I know it happens.

 

[Bio Bo]

You don't think the manufacture of ammo is "industrial polution"? What other industry allows their product to be disposed of randomly around the countryside? At least Pepsi tries to get you to dispose of their aluminum soda cans in a responsible manner.





Just exactly what "faulty science" says lead is a hazardous material??? I am guessing you got your Barstool Biology Degree the same place as Cali and Bio Bo. You can't even go buy a new computer for your business that has any lead in it, that new printer you need to print your drawings won't have any lead in it, but, yet somehow you now have knowledge that lead is not hazardous???

I always laugh at old people who are afraid of science.

Nobody said lead wasn't hazardous, smart duck, but so is water... people drown in it, and so can condors. Absurd, isn't it?
And I got my biology degree in 1970... been working in healthcare most of my life. And that makes me pretty old, by your standards, but it doesn't make me gullible or w/o reason... Just on opposite sides w/ you, evidently.

 

[DRAFTSTUD]

You don't think the manufacture of ammo is "industrial polution"? What other industry allows their product to be disposed of randomly around the countryside? At least Pepsi tries to get you to dispose of their aluminum soda cans in a responsible manner.





Just exactly what "faulty science" says lead is a hazardous material??? I am guessing you got your Barstool Biology Degree the same place as Cali and Bio Bo. You can't even go buy a new computer for your business that has any lead in it, that new printer you need to print your drawings won't have any lead in it, but, yet somehow you now have knowledge that lead is not hazardous???

I always laugh at old people who are afraid of science.

I was referring to the Condor issue, to twist an "Old Man's" words is your favorite method of throwing another log on a fire. Yes, Lead is very Hazardous. Studies have shown Babies who chewed on their crib painted with Lead Based paint often became Lawyers in their later years. John

 

[smalls]

I guess I got lucky when I found a golden eagle about 8 years ago. Very sick and easy to catch since he had a good deal of lead in him.

Axl's all-time greatest retrieve?