Listen to Hunt Talk podcast 87.... You will be more informed. By no means is anyone saying "switch or else".
Non-Lead Partnership
- Thread starter Redman
- Start date
Listen to Hunt Talk podcast 87.... You will be more informed. By no means is anyone saying "switch or else".
antelopedundee
Well-known member
All of those billions of bullets made every year by the bullet makers have to go somewhere. Of the ones that get shot, I'd venture that at least 90% end up in berms at shooting ranges.
Something like the DRTs mentioned above might be ok as long as you don't have to buy loaded ammo to get them.
Paul in Idaho
Well-known member
There was a good discussion about this when podcast 87 was first released: Lead fragments in hunter harvested deer
Following up on VikingGuy's price note - I have never reloaded my own cartridges, so am reliant on factory loads. I just checked Cabela's site for Federal Premium factory cartridges since they sell both Nosler Partition and their own Trophy Copper loads. 165 grain .30-06 is $39.99 for Nosler Partition, $38.99 for Trophy Copper. That's just one example, but is similar to other premium lead to copper bullet pricing differences I have seen recently. A couple weeks ago I saw the local Cabela's had the blue box Federal copper bullets for $28.99 for .30-06. I might try those just to see how they compare at the range to my current Barnes TTSX load.
If you want to hear the podcast but don't use a podcast app, you can listen at https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/hu...rg-unfiltered-hunting-conservation/e/55124454
Following up on VikingGuy's price note - I have never reloaded my own cartridges, so am reliant on factory loads. I just checked Cabela's site for Federal Premium factory cartridges since they sell both Nosler Partition and their own Trophy Copper loads. 165 grain .30-06 is $39.99 for Nosler Partition, $38.99 for Trophy Copper. That's just one example, but is similar to other premium lead to copper bullet pricing differences I have seen recently. A couple weeks ago I saw the local Cabela's had the blue box Federal copper bullets for $28.99 for .30-06. I might try those just to see how they compare at the range to my current Barnes TTSX load.
If you want to hear the podcast but don't use a podcast app, you can listen at https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/hu...rg-unfiltered-hunting-conservation/e/55124454
Last edited:
I appreciate everyone's response to this thread. It is a touchy subject after what California pulled.
It would be like getting on a Motorcycle forum and saying we need to make wearing helmets a law. You want to talk about upset....get a bunch of bikers ticked at you. ABATE did it the right way and provided training, facts, and allowed people to choose to wear a helmet or not. I don't remember the numbers but more than I would have imagined decided for themselves to start wearing a helmet.
It would be like getting on a Motorcycle forum and saying we need to make wearing helmets a law. You want to talk about upset....get a bunch of bikers ticked at you. ABATE did it the right way and provided training, facts, and allowed people to choose to wear a helmet or not. I don't remember the numbers but more than I would have imagined decided for themselves to start wearing a helmet.
Good info. Thanks for sharing, Paul and Vikings. The price for premium is not that bad in comparison... I'll have to review further for how it shrooms in comparison, etc or how the impact plays out and range adjustment. Much better price point than expected.
Well don't let folks from Michigan and Ohio hear about this or we'll be purposefully lacing our gut piles with lead dust from our cast bullet boxes. The only such animal I can think of I wouldn't want to poison are black bear. Even the eagles in AK are on my crap list after they tore open my food bag and stole my granola.
On a serious note, I don't think lead bullet fragments would be on anyone's pollution radar except for antihunters using it to get under our skin. It's not just the law that annoys me.
But that said, a lot of people won't eat gmo foods and what not. I'll meet you half way cause some of my bullets are half copper.
On a serious note, I don't think lead bullet fragments would be on anyone's pollution radar except for antihunters using it to get under our skin. It's not just the law that annoys me.
But that said, a lot of people won't eat gmo foods and what not. I'll meet you half way cause some of my bullets are half copper.
Rzrbck918
Well-known member
I’m sure you’re right but why let facts get in the way of a good argument.
T
tjones
Guest
These folks are far from anti hunters but keep eating lead if you choose.
https://m.ravallirepublic.com/news/local/article_d1d0e2db-c050-5f64-9e0f-d5c637baf635.html
http://wildlife.org/wsb-seeking-bullets-lethal-to-small-mammals-not-scavengers/
https://m.ravallirepublic.com/news/local/article_d1d0e2db-c050-5f64-9e0f-d5c637baf635.html
http://wildlife.org/wsb-seeking-bullets-lethal-to-small-mammals-not-scavengers/
Last edited by a moderator:
Yeah too be honest I do not think anyone is ignoring the facts. It's just that in the big scheme of the harmful pollution we cause everyday it does seem that this is trying to strain out the gnat so we can swallow the camel. Also, given the mortality and injuries suffered by animals in the wild anyways, I'm sure (in most cases) lead fragment poisoning is a drop in the bucket. Of course with endangered species it doesn't help. But the problems of endangered species are obviously numerous to begin with. Extinction was common long before humans used lead bullets or even existed in the first place.
But if someone wants to be extra careful with their food or make sure they don't risk poisoning an animal then by all means don't use lead bullets.
I don't think anyone here is telling people they can't use lead bullets either. But this is why I'm not to concerned about using them. Now lead shot on the other hand...well I use that too.
But if someone wants to be extra careful with their food or make sure they don't risk poisoning an animal then by all means don't use lead bullets.
I don't think anyone here is telling people they can't use lead bullets either. But this is why I'm not to concerned about using them. Now lead shot on the other hand...well I use that too.
Gerald Martin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2009
- Messages
- 8,643
I switched to monolithic non-lead for penetration and reduced bloodshot meat. Finding lead fragments in the summer sausage made from my last Corelokt killed buck clinched my decision to stick with copper. Drop down a few grains in bullet weight to keep higher velocities and help expansion. Most people who find fault with mono bullets cite lack of expansion at lower velocities.
This has been a really good thread! I was pretty dismissive initially though proceeded with a slight interest with respect to the differences.
Upon the price point, possible fragments, I'm buying a box for this year's hunts.
I'm far from sold on an environmental issue as I imagine most rounds end up in a tree, least in the NW MT area. We don't have the vast glassing parks other portions of the state have or better stated, far, far fewer and no not concerned over a tree with a lead round or dug in dirt driver.
Even though I've never experienced lead in my food and having some supported knowledge of Martin's activities outdoors, I don't plan to find out.
As suggested by Viking and Martin, I drop down a weight. I intend to stick with Federal Premium rounds.
Price point is actually equal if not lower...???
Federal Premium Vital-Shok, .30-06 Springfield, Trophy Copper BT, 165 Grain, 20 Rounds $31.50
Vs
Federal Premium Vital-Shok Nosler Partition, .30-06 Springfield, NP, 180 Grain, 20 Rounds $34.00
Sold.
Upon the price point, possible fragments, I'm buying a box for this year's hunts.
I'm far from sold on an environmental issue as I imagine most rounds end up in a tree, least in the NW MT area. We don't have the vast glassing parks other portions of the state have or better stated, far, far fewer and no not concerned over a tree with a lead round or dug in dirt driver.
Even though I've never experienced lead in my food and having some supported knowledge of Martin's activities outdoors, I don't plan to find out.
As suggested by Viking and Martin, I drop down a weight. I intend to stick with Federal Premium rounds.
Price point is actually equal if not lower...???
Federal Premium Vital-Shok, .30-06 Springfield, Trophy Copper BT, 165 Grain, 20 Rounds $31.50
Vs
Federal Premium Vital-Shok Nosler Partition, .30-06 Springfield, NP, 180 Grain, 20 Rounds $34.00
Sold.
shootbrownelk
Well-known member
They aren't saying "Switch or Else" YET. Give them time.
RobG
Well-known member
It was a very good podcast and I'm really glad Randy did it. If memory serves, the basic problem is that bullets fragment so even if the bullet passes through the gut pile there is residue. Raptors are especially susceptible. Although they seemed to downplay it, I would think plinking gophers with lead would be a major issue, and one where we wouldn't normally do to the extra expense of copper.
LCH
Well-known member
I've performed groundwater monitoring at old government shooting ranges. One, located in a low-lying area where the water table was at times as close as 10' to the ground surface, was in use for approximately 60 years. I have no idea how many millions of rounds were fired into the earthen berms there. There are detectable amounts of lead in the groundwater at that location.
As far as hobby shooting and hunting with lead rifle ammunition, I don't see it as an environmental concern. Lead is a naturally occurring element, and can often be detected in background soil samples in undisturbed soil.
As far as ingesting lead dust in your meat, I do not worry about that too much either. It's my belief that you're more likely to get an overexposure to lead while shooting your firearm than by ingesting it in your food.
These are just my opinions based on limited experience, ymmv.
As far as hobby shooting and hunting with lead rifle ammunition, I don't see it as an environmental concern. Lead is a naturally occurring element, and can often be detected in background soil samples in undisturbed soil.
As far as ingesting lead dust in your meat, I do not worry about that too much either. It's my belief that you're more likely to get an overexposure to lead while shooting your firearm than by ingesting it in your food.
These are just my opinions based on limited experience, ymmv.
LCH
Well-known member
Another thing with lead free ammunition.. I have performed air sampling where a detectable amount of lead was found while firing non-lead bullets, but standard lead primers. But we're talking miniscule concentrations unless firing a large volume in an enclosed space.
Bluejeep
Active member
I lived in CA up until a month ago. Back in 2015 the non-lead laws began going into effect, with a complete outlaw of lead in hunting by 2019. Up until last year (2017) I had used Sierra Game King (I reload). It was at that time that I decided to switch, not because of the approaching deadline, but because I felt I had a responsibility to. I am now using Barnes TTSX with great results and don't miss the old lead ammo at all. Well, maybe the prices...
Makes me wonder. As a kid I had a bullet trap in our basement and would burn thousands of rounds down there with no ventilation to speak of. I can remember coughing and kind of sweet taste that followed. That was 25-30 years ago.
This study out of Minnesota is what changed my mind, I went down that rabbit hole after listening to the above mentioned podcast. Here is a slideshow, but there is also an in depth write up. https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_wildlife/lead/index.htm. From what i understand a MD started x-raying packages of processed deer and half of them contained lead. Think about the bloodshot meat discarded for millions of gut piles, 2 #6 lead pellets ingested can kill a bird.
IMO copper is fine for ELK and other big game because of the weight retention. Probably even better than most quick fragmenting lead bullets. It's whitetails that bother me, I remember when ballistic tips came on the scene and I watched people starting losing big whitetails regularly. The bullet simply fragmented too quickly. On the opposite end I remember people trying to use bullets that did not fragment at all and losing deer with complete passthroughs. Add to that the bullet performance difference between a mature buck and a doe, I can see why people would want to stick to good ole core lokts for deer.
For me the switch was easy after seeing the x-rays. Who wants to eat a bunch of lead?
IMO copper is fine for ELK and other big game because of the weight retention. Probably even better than most quick fragmenting lead bullets. It's whitetails that bother me, I remember when ballistic tips came on the scene and I watched people starting losing big whitetails regularly. The bullet simply fragmented too quickly. On the opposite end I remember people trying to use bullets that did not fragment at all and losing deer with complete passthroughs. Add to that the bullet performance difference between a mature buck and a doe, I can see why people would want to stick to good ole core lokts for deer.
For me the switch was easy after seeing the x-rays. Who wants to eat a bunch of lead?
Similar threads
