No MSG under 18?

[406LIFE]

Not in any real sense

It's not about odds. Its about the equitable access of a very limited, public resource. The guy who draws multiple tags is almost certainly preventing someone else from getting a tag that never had one. There are still plenty of other places to apply for tags if someone wants to continue.

 

[HighWildFree]

In case anyone is curious as I was...

Changing to OIL will result in a mean increase in draw odds of 0.15%

How I got there:

128 ram tags issued in 2018 (No ewe, No unlimited)
Assuming 128 ram tags issued every year for the last 30 years
Everyone who drew a ram tag in the last 30 years is still applying (not including those on the 7 year probation, 2011-2018)
That is 2,944 folks who have drawn a tag in the last 30 years.

For the heck of it lets just double that number to 5,888

I assumed that repeat applicants were representative of the population and occurred in the same proportion. I then distributed those applicants across each unit based on what proportion of applicants each unit got.

Example: 680-20 tag receives about 22% of all ram applicants so 22% of our 5,888 repeat applicants is 1,236 applicants that have previously received a ram tag and would be eliminated under the OIL rule.

After figuring out how many applicants to remove per unit, I calculated new success rates (# of tags / # of apps) and calculated the difference between the new and old success rates.

Pretty down and dirty but I think it shows that if the goal for OIL is to improve draw odds, then this kind of legislation is pointless.

 

[HighWildFree]

It's not about odds. Its about the equitable access of a very limited, public resource. The guy who draws multiple tags is almost certainly preventing someone else from getting a tag that never had one. There are still plenty of other places to apply for tags if someone wants to continue.

If I had to guess, I think repeat tag holders are pretty rare in the grand scheme of things. They certainly happen though.

I guy I know had 13 points for mountain goat when he finally drew at 65 years old. Drove to the trailhead saw where the goats lived and never went back.

 

[Sytes]

It's not about odds. Its about the equitable access of a very limited, public resource. The guy who draws multiple tags is almost certainly preventing someone else from getting a tag that never had one. There are still plenty of other places to apply for tags if someone wants to continue.

Almost certainly = certainly. No doubt about it. I support the basis with the exception of juvenile exemption from points.

 

[Alabama]

I agree with OIL but excluding Kids is just wrong. If you really want to improve the odds make everyone choose 1 species like Idaho. I bet Moose, Bison, and Mtn Goat odds would skyrocket! Sheep probably wouldn't improve too much because that's what most everyone wants in MT.

 

[MTGomer]

Fish, Wildlife, and Parks (H)

House Fish, Wildlife, and Parks - Video

sg001-harmony.sliq.net

It is the third or fourth bill heard in this video. If you hit the forward arrow a couple times it will take you to the beginning of the HB390 reading. Around 1:35 I think it was

It is interesting to see the mental gymnastics used by old men to project their perceptions of 12-17 year old’s motivations onto them.

As Randy11 mentioned in this thread and Brian Solan says in his opposition testimony, we need more sheep on the mountain, not less opportunity.

 

[Mtnhunter1]

Montana legislature really needs to be cut out of ALL wildlife and hunting related issues! My word, these are the dumbest and greediest people on the planet!

Regarding this issue, all intended legislative voters should be forced to read Mica Man’s earlier post, “”Taking a kid to Church””!! Removing ANY hunting opportunity for our youth is sure to be suicide for the future of hunting and wildlife conservation.

As far as OIL, just the folks trying to push “FAIRNESS” again! It is “The Luck of the Draw”, nothing more and nothing less. I know plenty of people and some kids that have drawn tags with little or no points. That has always made some of the max point crowd jealous as hell and thinking that somehow they’d been cheated. Now pushing to eliminate kids from applying? Montana is certainly flushing its hunting heritage down the proverbial crapper….

Mtnhunter1

 

[Trial153]

Just when you thought things couldn’t get any stupider they do.

 

[Poke 'Em]

I'm obviously in the minority, but the minimum age limit doesn't really bother me. If your 12 year old only wants to get into hunting if they can shoot a MSG, well, they probably aren't going to get into hunting. With Montana now allowing parents to buy points for their newborns, it's only a matter of time before teenagers are going on bighorn sheep hunts that they don't care about any more than a whitetail hunt, all because dad wants to live vicariously through them. I can't see creating a minimum age for MSG having ANY impact on youth hunter recruitment.

That said, I don't think we need this bill. But I'm certainly not up in arms about it.

 

[MTGomer]

I'm obviously in the minority, but the minimum age limit doesn't really bother me. If your 12 year old only wants to get into hunting if they can shoot a MSG, well, they probably aren't going to get into hunting. With Montana now allowing parents to buy points for their newborns, it's only a matter of time before teenagers are going on bighorn sheep hunts that they don't care about any more than a whitetail hunt, all because dad wants to live vicariously through them. I can't see creating a minimum age for MSG having ANY impact on youth hunter recruitment.

That said, I don't think we need this bill. But I'm certainly not up in arms about it.

There are a lot of adults getting big 3 tags they don’t care about. Do you have any idea how many people draw a big three tag and rush through it trying to kill something right away so they can get back to elk hunting?
That’s what happens when it costs $10 to apply.

 

[MTGomer]

Using that warped logic, we should exclude about 1/2 of the wives and girlfriends. Which has me thinking, maybe I should starting putting in for sheep again. I'll bet I can talk my wife and 20 year old daughter in to applying also. If this is good enough to screw our children over for. I think I might be missing something.

I can think of 4 instances of exactly what you just said regarding non hunting wives right off the top of my head of people I know. I can’t think of any with kids.

Also, what’s to stop this at MSG? Goat odds in many units are better than 310, 380 elk or the 260s and 270 mule deer. Why should a kid get a buffer elk tag when Mr, grayhairs never has?

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

^Like

There is actually a like button now!!

 

[MLaird]

I really don't like the idea of taking away those opportunities from youth. I've never drawn one of those tags, but I would gladly give up any tag I might draw if my boys could get one.

 

[Fire_9]

There are a lot of adults getting big 3 tags they don’t care about. Do you have any idea how many people draw a big three tag and rush through it trying to kill something right away so they can get back to elk hunting?
That’s what happens when it costs $10 to apply.

Is the guy that spends one weekend on his tag any less worthy of the tag than a guy that spends the whole season on it? I agree it’s a shame that people don’t invest more time but who are we to say that someone else would have been better off with that tag?

It does amaze me how many people are okay with the idea of take the opportunity away from kids. They have just as much of a right to hunt them as anyone else

 

[BigHornRam]

This bill needs to be put in the dumb bill dumpster. Good to see Brian Solan speaking out against it.

 

[MTGomer]

Is the guy that spends one weekend on his tag any less worthy of the tag than a guy that spends the whole season on it? I agree it’s a shame that people don’t invest more time but who are we to say that someone else would have been better off with that tag?

It does amaze me how many people are okay with the idea of take the opportunity away from kids. They have just as much of a right to hunt them as anyone else

No, he’s not less worthy. It’s his tag, and he can make use of it however he wants. If he wants to shoot a barely legal 2 year old in the breaks(has happened) or Posewitz wants to frame a goat tag on his wall (happened) or a 14 year old wants to hunt 35 days for a trophy bull moose and eat his tag if he doesn’t find it (also happened), that is fine with me.

 

[TylerS243]

I agree with the main component of the bill which makes moose, sheep, and goat tags a once in a lifetime harvest but they need to strike the portion about being 18 years of age or older. I have contacted my reperesnitves about this bill and stated that the age limit portion needs to be removed. As this bill relates to once in a lifetime harvest, I believe hunters will be more selective and less likely to harvest young animals knowing that they can only harvest one animal of that species in the hunter’s lifetime. Randy11 makes a great point, and us as hunters we need to make a more concerted effort to increase MSG populations, but making these animals a once in a life time harvest is not a bad thing and may help the heards.

 

[EYJONAS!]

There are a lot of adults getting big 3 tags they don’t care about. Do you have any idea how many people draw a big three tag and rush through it trying to kill something right away so they can get back to elk hunting?
That’s what happens when it costs $10 to apply.

Cant tell you how many times I have heard this statement, "Yeah.... I drew a goat tag. I just want to get it done and over with so I can chase bulls with my bow." Me......"How'd your Mountain Goat hunt go?" Person.... "It was fun.... I am glad it's over I'm never going back up there..... shot the first goat we saw.... it was a nanny."

DRIVES ME NUTS!

They call it a draw for a reason, I have seen just as many 1pt holders get a tag as "max" pointers. Whether it's kids that draw them or some 75 year old that's been applying for 50 years I hope they enjoy the experience. Someone always comes up with some bullshit deal every offseason and proposes it. Hope its DOA and we can all move on.

People try and propose changes for the "unlimited units" too. Like stopping the 7 year wait so on and so forth. Why rock the boat and try and make changes to something that works. The "old school" sheep hunters that have been there done that and stayed successful all say the same thing. Leave it along unless you want to loose one of the greatest hunting privileges in the lower 48!

 

[EYJONAS!]

I honestly cant see how making it OIL is gonna benefit anyone in this. The chances are so dismal to draw as it is anyways. Taking a couple hundred people out a year isn't going to change shit. With 10 dollar application fees, more and more apply every year anyways. I also don't agree with the exclusion of the Unlimited hunts in this picture all that's gonna do is drive numbers up there as well for those hunts. I'll encourage people to try if they want but I am plum happy with 65 to 85 applicants a year vs 500. Gives me more freedom to roam.

 

[MTGomer]

HB 390 has been tabled