New Mountain Lion Proposal Added

[Gerald Martin]

Folks, a new motion for proposed changes to the Mountain Lion Season has been added to the Commission Agenda.

In short, an unlimited permit is going to be added in conjunction with quotas for area’s currently managed with limited permits.

This unlimited permit circumvents the 90/10 resident/ nonresident restrictions and will allow outfitters to book an unlimited number of clients and hunt them until the quota is filled. This proposal would reserve from 10-30% of permits to be filled by limited permit holders beyond the quota range once the quota was filled.

Another classic example of making sure outfitters come first with a portion of the crumbs reserved for residents to show they are willing to share.

Lion Season Motion


I move to adopt the following Lion Regulations for the 2022-23 Season:
• For all regions, during the archery only and fall season without dogs, a General License may be used in any valid mountain lion hunting district but the district will close when the harvest reaches a number nearest to 20 percent of the quota. In all areas, the combined Archery Only and Fall Season Without Dogs male and female mountain lion harvest from all license holders will be deducted from the respective male or female mountain lion quotas. (Note: no changes to existing regulations)
• For all Regions for the Winter Season, applicants can apply for either:
o A Limited Special Lion License designating the region (or cluster of districts where applicable) that is good for the entire season regardless ifquotas are filled until the season is closed.
o An Unlimited Special Lion License designating the region (or cluster of districts where applicable) until quotas are filled or until the season is closed.
o In all Regions all hunting districts are quota-based with either a Limited Special Lion License or Unlimited Special Lion License for residents and nonresidents.
• Limited Special Lion License:
o A limited number of Special Mountain Lion Licenses are available only through a special drawing. Apply by July 31.
o Applicants must possess a current year Conservation License and a Base Hunting License to apply for a Special Mountain Lion License.
o Bonus points will be offered for Limited Special Mountain Lion License applications.
o Nonresidents are limited to no more than 10 percent of the Limited Special Mountain Lion Licenses offered.
o A Special Mountain Lion License may be applied for: -- online at fwp.mt.gov no later than 11:45 p.m. MDT on July 31, or -- over-the-counter at any FWP Regional office, FWP area office, and/or the Helena Headquarters no later than 5 p.m. MDT July 31.
o Drawing results will be available on or after August 5th.
o Successful Limited Special Mountain Lion License applicants will be notified by mail and must purchase a mountain lion license no later than February 28, 2023.
o During the Archery Only and Fall Season Without Dogs, a Limited Special Mountain Lion License may be used in any valid mountain lionhunting district.
o During the Winter Season, a Limited Special Mountain Lion License may be used only in a specific hunting region or a group of hunting districts for which the Limited Special Mountain Lion License is valid.
• Unlimited Special Lion License
o An Unlimited Special Lion License is available at all Fish, Wildlife & Parks offices, FWP license providers, or online at fwp.mt.gov. Purchase by February 28, 2023
o An Unlimited Special Lion License is available to resident and nonresident Conservation Licenseholders 12 years of age or older or who will turn 12 years old before or during the season for which the license is issued.
o During the Archery Only and Fall Season Without Dogs, an Unlimited Special Lion License may be used in any valid mountain lion hunting district.
o During the Winter Season, an Unlimited Special Lion License may be used only in a specific hunting region or a group of hunting districts for which the Limited Special Mountain Lion License is valid.
o An Unlimited Special Lion License is valid in a specific hunting region or a group of hunting districts until quotas are filled or until the season is closed.
• Number of Limited Special Lion Licenses
o The Commission may set aside from 10% to 30% of the quota of any region or cluster of districts for the offering of Limited Special Lion Licenses, for the purpose of providing a privileged quality hunting opportunity not subject to the quota.
o The determination of the specific number of Limited Special Lion Licenses by region or cluster of districts will be in conjunction with the adoption of quotas by the Commission.
o Unsuccessful applicants for a Limited Special Mountain Lion License WILL NOT be eligible to purchase an Unlimited Special Lion License.
o Unsuccessful resident applicants for a Limited Special Mountain Lion License may purchase a Resident Hound Training License to only chase during the hound training season December 2 - April 14 in any valid hunting district statewide.
o If we do not sell all of our Limited SpecialMountain Lion Licenses through the drawing process they will be made available as Unlimited Special Lion Licenses in their respective region or a group of hunting districts.
o To apply for a Nonresident Hound License the nonresident must already hold a Limited Special Lion License or an Unlimited Special Lion License.
o Nonresident Hound Licenses are limited to a maximum of two per hunting district, and will be determined in conjunction with the adoption of quotas by the Commission.
o Other changes to the Nonresident Hound Licenses instructions as determined necessary by the Department to conform with this motion

 

[Hunting Wife]

I suppose today is the last day to comment in this, too then?

 

[MTGomer]

i’m so tired of these people.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I suppose today is the last day to comment in this, too then?

I think we’ll have opportunity to comment at the meeting?

 

[Gerald Martin]

We have Commissioner Tabor to thank for this one.

 

[shoots-straight]

Thanks for bringing this forward.

 

[Bowhunter65]

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You can still email the commission.

my response to the commission,

Commission Chair and Commissioners,

I propose that region 1 remains status quo with limited mountain lion permits in all the lion HD's in Region 1. This is a proven system that has worked for almost 20 years with no mistakes. We are able to adjust the permits up or down and it has worked to help with the harvest of male and female lions. We had the high bred system here in Region 1 from 2001 - 2006 via HB 142, it did not work then and it will not work now, in that system we gave the outfitting businesses a huge chance not to overrun the quotas, they failed in each of those years. We do not have any problem with permits over harvesting, we will have with the high bred system, here in Region 1, we were the problem, we are always first with the good snow and our road systems. Please take a better look at this and make it about resources (the lion) and not about anything else. We also have another proposal going state wide being presented by commissioner Tabor with no public comment period, this is not right, the people of Montana need to be heard on this subject no matter if legal counsel has said it is alright or not, that is called ramrodding, this is not the right thing to do, this will not sit well with the states houndsmen. When the subject of the mountain lions come up the houndsmen & women who deserve to be heard, we keep the hounds, feed them and then we are the ones the state depends on to control the harvest through sound science that the biologists present, whether or not it is through a permit system or quota, again please listen to the boots on the ground. If we have any quota over runs this will without one doubt feed the anti lion hunting community with fuel to fight us on our hunt, look at Colorado & Arizona as we speak, proposals to end cat hunting with hounds.

Sincerely,
Terry L. Zink 3rd generation houndman

 

[Addicting]

As a NR who has looked into hunting lions there the unlimited sounds good but isn’t. That makes it possible to spend the money to book a hunt and travel there. Only to find out the quota was met the morning you arrived. If quotas were high it may be worth taking the chance. With single digit quotas, that is not a investment I’m willing to gamble on.

 

[shoots-straight]

As a NR who has looked into hunting lions there the unlimited sounds good but isn’t. That makes it possible to spend the money to book a hunt and travel there. Only to find out the quota was met the morning you arrived. If quotas were high it may be worth taking the chance. With single digit quotas, that is not a investment I’m willing to gamble on.

So either go early to a general quota area or put in for limited areas.

 

[Pagosa]

Unbelievable, I can’t stand this little fat pig. I don’t even know why I even try to obey the game laws.

 

[Gerald Martin]

So either go early to a general quota area or put in for limited areas.

With this proposal only 10-30% of the total quota will be reserved for limited permits. NR will be limited to 10% of the limited permits by law.

The odds of a NR drawing a limited lion permit if this goes through will be as bad or worse than drawing a NR sheep tag.

If unit 121 currently has 22 permits with a target of 16-18 lions harvested out of those permits the total number of limited permits would provide be only 2-5 for all applicants. There would be no tags available for NR under the 10% cap.

The only chance a NR will have to hunt lions in a permit area is with an outfitter.

 

[Schaaf]

How is this legal with their public comment period?

 

[shoots-straight]

How is this legal with their public comment period?

Legal? Nothing is out of bounds these days.

 

[BuzzH]

It may be worth suing the MTFWP over some of this stuff.

There is NO way that this would fly in Wyoming.

 

[OpenCountry]

This unlimited permit circumvents the 90/10 resident/ nonresident restrictions and will allow outfitters to book an unlimited number of clients and hunt them until the quota is filled.

Am I missing how it will circumvent the 90/10 split? I thought the 90/10 split only counted towards the NR hound license required to run your own dogs for your own tag (set at 10% of the areas quota last year). NR were forced into using outfitters last year unless they drew the hound permit to run their own dogs or chose to break the law and use a buddies dogs. Outfitters can already book an unlimited number of NR who are willing to purchase a general tag in an area it’s good in.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Am I missing how it will circumvent the 90/10 split? I thought the 90/10 split only counted towards the NR hound license required to run your own dogs for your own tag (set at 10% of the areas quota last year). NR were forced into using outfitters last year unless they drew the hound permit to run their own dogs or chose to break the law and use a buddies dogs. Outfitters can already book an unlimited number of NR who are willing to purchase a general tag in an area it’s good in. View attachment 209843

This gets really confusing.
The 90/10 split for a permit to kill a lion applies to areas with limited permits. For example, if unit 121 has a total of 22 permits then by law NR’s would be limited to a maximum of two permits each year.

In areas that offer unlimited permits, every person who applies gets a permit without distinction between resident or nonresident.

Historically, a unit like 121 would have @ 250-300 applicants both R and NR for @22 permits for a simple draw odds of @10% for residents. Once NR’s drew their maximum allocation of 10% of the permits the rest of the NR applicants were removed from the pool. Sometimes all the permits would be drawn by residents.

If this proposal goes through everyone gets a permit to hunt but the maximum harvest is controlled by a quota.

Potentially, if 50-75 NR’s apply for 121, they all get permits and can hunt with any of the approximately 12 outfitters in that unit. If the quota is 16-18 lions it won’t take long for that quota to be filled and the potential for quota overruns is certain. In the past when the quota system was in place in region 1 and 2 there were documented overruns of up to double the quota being filled.

FWP gets their $$$ @ $350 a pop for every NR that draws. Outfitters can book a maximum number of clients every year even if most of them won’t get to hunt when they can actually shoot a lion.
Conflict between outfitters and resident hound hunters will skyrocket.

 

[OpenCountry]

Thanks @Gerald Martin . So business would stay the same in the regions I highlighted in my previous post (general tag becomes unlimited for region specific areas) and change in the current limited quota areas across MT. Just wanted to verify. A few areas had Tom quotas around here closed by Dec 15ish on a general tag. Makes it tough but still fun to run.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Thanks @Gerald Martin . So business would stay the same in the regions I highlighted in my previous post (general tag becomes unlimited for region specific areas) and change in the current limited quota areas across MT. Just wanted to verify. A few areas had Tom quotas around here closed by Dec 15ish on a general tag. Makes it tough but still fun to run.

My experience of lion hunting is from @ 2008-2020 in Region 1.
The guys I hunted with had very negative perspectives of the hunt under the old quota system and general licenses. They all preferred the current system of limited permits. The only exceptions were the outfitters who couldn’t book enough NR clients to make it financially viable to keep hounds under the 90/10 limit for NR.
Most of Region 1 and 2 have extensive networks of roads both drivable and open to snowmobile only. With high outfitter numbers and lots of resident hound men quotas were often filled very quickly.

Even during the permit only system I have experienced quite a few days of hunting where multiple hunters will be driving the same areas we are hunting looking for tracks after a fresh snow.

Even with limited permits there was a sub quota for male lions that caused significant competition among hunters.

Currently, unit 121 and several surrounding units have either sex tags and female only tags. That makes it possible for a tag holder to have a quality hunt when they finally do draw a permit.

From my perspective, the dynamics of lion hunting in region 1 and 2 is significantly different than general tag areas in regions 3,4,5,6, and 7.

 

[OpenCountry]

My experience of lion hunting is from @ 2008-2020 in Region 1.
The guys I hunted with had very negative perspectives of the hunt under the old quota system and general licenses. They all preferred the current system of limited permits. The only exceptions were the outfitters who couldn’t book enough NR clients to make it financially viable to keep hounds under the 90/10 limit for NR.
Most of Region 1 and 2 have extensive networks of roads both drivable and open to snowmobile only. With high outfitter numbers and lots of resident hound men quotas were often filled very quickly.

Even during the permit only system I have experienced quite a few days of hunting where multiple hunters will be driving the same areas we are hunting looking for tracks after a fresh snow.

Even with limited permits there was a sub quota for male lions that caused significant competition among hunters.

Currently, unit 121 and several surrounding units have either sex tags and female only tags. That makes it possible for a tag holder to have a quality hunt when they finally do draw a permit.

From my perspective, the dynamics of lion hunting in region 1 and 2 is significantly different than general tag areas in regions 3,4,5,6, and 7.

Completely agree they’re significantly different and why I asked how it would affect each type of area differently. Being from the central part of the state I wanted to know how it would impact both our general tag side and yours limited permit side. It seems like the hound license requirement helped out over here with NR slamming the quotas shut in a few areas previously.

 

[shoots-straight]

PROPOSED 2022-2023 MOUNTAIN LION REGULATIONS​

2 loaded question, questionnaire, aimed so it sounds like you agree to changing the system for MOGA. agree to changing the system for MOGA.

Go to the commission comment page and send in your comments.

So long as you agree to a certain percentage of change so outfitters can get their clients.

In the Bitterroot Valley, (pre Hybrid seasons) everyone was pissed at how the lion hunting was going. So the Outfitters hired every kid that wasn't working or even those that had jobs and paid them for finding cat tracks. The Outfitters would then get their clients on those cats ASAP and kill whatever was up a tree.

Also all the local houndsmen would run roads all night long, every night until the quota's filled.

Everyone was shooting females, and whatever was treed know the quota would be filled.

So our sportsmen's group invited all the stakeholders that were involved in hunting lions together. It was quite the mix and had it's moments of going south at times.

We ended up with the current Hybrid season that's here now. Hunters can draw the allotted tags and for 2 months to look around, chase cats knowing that the season wouldn't fill in a few days. . Then after the 2 months are up, it's open to everyone to fill the remaining quotas.

Now with MOGA feeling empowered we have this new proposal so we go back to chaos.
They are changing it up a little and wanting to know if you wish to see 10% 20%, or 30% of the available tags to go to Limited entry.

Better yet go right to the commissioners. Not sure if Tabor is worth the time as this is his proposal I believe.

REGION 1​

Patrick Tabor - Vice Chair
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REGION 2​

Jana Waller
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REGION 3​

Pat Byorth
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REGION 4​

KC Walsh
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REGION 5​

Brian Cebull
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REGION 6​

Lesley Robinson - Commission Chair
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REGION 7​

William Lane
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