Coach Chris
Member
Arthur Middleton, Wildlife Ecologist and National Geographic Explorer, talking about the elk migration and Greater Yellowstone ecosystem.
https://youtu.be/gL1c8GjnG6M
https://youtu.be/gL1c8GjnG6M
Nat Geo Greater Yellowstone Eco System Elk
- Thread starter Coach Chris
- Start date
Killergaurd
Member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2017
- Messages
- 85
I didnt watch it. Thanks fwp for ruining the greatest elk herds known to man. Never got a chance to hunt big park bulls on those late hunts just heard stories. Got to think even if the herd was at 8 to 10 thousand fwp would still have a true late season hunt. Not that I would put in for it but it would provide more oppurtunity for limited entry bull tags. It's a crime 24,000 elk to 2,500. Unreal.
Yellowstoner
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2015
- Messages
- 167
The elk herd was unnaturally large due to the lack of predation within Yellowstone, which led to a late-season hunt. The reintroduction of wolves to the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem has led to more natural elk numbers. Yellowstone is not a game farm. The late season hunt was an absolute shit-show. In 2010 (after the late season had already been shut down), hundreds of bulls were taken just outside the park line during a single early winter storm. No one seems to mention this when talking about the bull-cow ratio in 313.
The size of bulls coming out of the park has increased since the reintroduction of the wolves - just see Jim Schwalbe's bull from a few years ago if you need proof. There was a 400+" bull killed a few years ago (2013?) before shooting light, and was confiscated by the state. A late season hunt is not a good thing - it means the population is way over objective, which isn't healthy for elk or for any of the other 4-legged creatures trying to survive in marginal habitat.
Killergaurd
Member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2017
- Messages
- 85
yellowstoner u are obviously pro wolf. Iam pro hunter. Ya at 24,000 elk there were no big ones. idiot. Having grown up very close to there i have to disagree with u. All iam saying is more oppurtunity.
Topgun 30-06
Active member
Killergaurd---There were way too many elk in Yellowstone just like our member mentioned, but it's too bad the wolf numbers increased to the point where they have decimated the elk population along with other various reasons for the decrease. Just because our member made his statement doesn't mean he's pro wolf any more than all the huggers that are out there. What IMHO is too bad is that you called the guy an idiot for the reasonable post he made and that wolves have no human control within the Park and the only way any will be taken is if they wander out far enough from the Park boundary to be shot legally during a fall season.
Lawnboy
Well-known member
Hmm.... no bueno
Killergaurd
Member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2017
- Messages
- 85
I apologize for calling yellowstone an idiot. He prob works for fwp so I will never draw a tag again. Seriously I apologize. All iam saying is that if the herd was 8 to 10 thousand fwp could still have a late hunt. Which would be highly sought after. Therefore more oppurtunity. Maybe 24,000 was too many, iam not a bio. But 2,500 is too few.
Huntin_GI
Member
These comments make my head hurt.
Hem
Well-known member
Thoughtful comments by Yellowstoner and Mttw.
And spot on.
Yep...it's a bummer the cross fire slaughter at the flats is gone and homeys have to actually hunt to kill an elk.
And spot on.
Yep...it's a bummer the cross fire slaughter at the flats is gone and homeys have to actually hunt to kill an elk.
Cody_Frankum
Member
I think the wolves are cool, should be managed a little tighter and should have been managed earlier but can't go back now! I think Yellowstoner's post was pretty reasonable.
Coach Chris
Member
Yes!
Bigjav
Active member
There needs to be some sort of balance, I think we can agree that 10k elk being under managed is bad just like no management of the wolves isn't any better
RobG
Well-known member
Others know more details, but the MT legislature mandated that elk numbers be reduced to about where they are now. Even if there was no wolves their numbers would be way down.
Also... if you look at the elk number trend, in addition to it being a very out-of-the-ordinary peak, they were starting down before the wolves were reintroduced.
Old Ranger
Member
I haven't posted in a long time for various reasons but felt perhaps some other perspectives offered here might have some value. I most certainly do not attempt to offer any level of "rock solid.... cast in stone ... absolute knowledge" to this discussion. Just my points of view. I do feel that was once the "Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd".. (and yes there once was one).... deserves better than some of the simplicities to the matter.. as have been put forth by some. Again.. just my perspective.
As i wrote on an earlier post to a similar topic... Discussing Grey Wolves/Big Game dynamics in today's world rivals discussions of "Trump Politics"..... Lots of different values, ideologies, and emotions.
I watched and listened to Dr. Middleton and I personally thought he made good points and showed a broader outlook to the Yellowstone Ecosystem as well as similar Parks and Wildlife populations around the world. His attempts to key in on the high level of diverse and polarized publics of today connected to our complex and ever challenged natural ecosystems..... all resonated with me.
So some personal perspectives on this subject.....
Late Hunt a Bad Idea:
The Yellowstone Elk herds have held social and political contentions throughout history. The Herds have been both defended at times and abandoned at others. Yes, the Park Service did reduce the numbers inside the Park in the very early 1960's. It should be noted that the Superintendent at the time who "decided" on the "correct" Elk Carrying Capacity for the Park and the associated matters of the time was removed from his position due to his "actions and foresight". The herds continued to grow from the curtailment of the Park actions of the early 1960's. But it wasn't until the mid 1970's and later that the herds were in numbers large enough to begin consistently coming outside of Yellowstone along the northwestern borders and back onto more historical winter ranges of the Upper Yellowstone corridor. Hence became the more consistently yearly "Gardiner Late Season" and with it the cultural values and regional/local economic gains that developed. Elk were sure being hunted and taken before that but the late season influx was seen as an opportunity to harvest more elk from a population mostly not hunted during more traditional fall periods. At the time it was seen as a good thing. Now I guess it was all a bad thing. Yellowstone Park bordering Montana is a unique situation as we all can agree.
No Predation before the reintroduction of the Grey Wolves:
Predation was alive and ongoing what with the effects of Coyotes, Black Bear, and Grizzly Bear during different periods of the year. From Spring calving periods on. Research identified and established Black Bear and Grizzly Bear influences on the Elk populations of the time. Then with Man being another very effective predator through the use of sport hunting. As the ongoing NPS Chief of Research for the Grey Wolf reintroduction program and its current management has stated... there were a number of predators connected to the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd before the re-introduction in 1996 of the Grey Wolf. But that addition just put another weight on the scale.........
In my personal opinion a heavy one..... good bad right or wrong. It now "Is what it is"...
In the late 1980's and into the 1990's the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd and the secured Landscapes it used both within and outside of Yellowstone NP was all described as the "Serengeti of the lower 48". A good thing.... to some. Now we read that the Elk populations were off the charts in comparison to the landscapes they used. And that the wolves were then the good thing. To some. We challenge each other and punch each other's buttons when some of us see the re-introduction of the wolves as a almost totally benign effect and influence across they landscapes and territories that they have established and thrived within. While others of us see any real management of the Grey Wolves starting with daily year round flights with Cobra Gunships.
There is not the Carrying Capacity for many Elk in and around Yellowstone Park:
What seems to me to be a lost dynamic in these discussions is the idea held by some is that the carrying capacities and available winter and summer ranges for the once Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd was and is totally static. It has never changed and "probably decreased" in some view points. The Fires of 1988 opened up a large amount of the existing landscapes. Some most certainly followed their natural successions and are moving back towards the Forested Vegetation Types they formally were. But other areas have remained open and have moved to more grassland/shrub-land settings. A greatly reduced elk population has seen an influx of herbaceous species such as Aspen clones along more riparian settings. But think of the amount of Apsen and other grassland and shrubland communities regenerated due to the 1988 fires. One late morning in the mid 1990's I met another Hunter along a ridge in the head of Hellroaring Creek during the early Bugle Season. We shared the mountain together and talked of the hunting we had experienced. This fellow talked the talk and offered how he came into this country both during the early season as well as later in November. I could tell he had seen Elk Hunting few of us come close to. A key point he made was how he had first hand observed the differences in Elk numbers coming up the drainages out of Yellowstone into the AB Wilderness areas in the summer early fall as well as later. The fires of 88' had just opened up so much more country and available feed. They didn't have to come so far.
In connection with the effects of the 1988 fires was the landmark efforts of the US Forest Service, Montana FWP, and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation to secure the funding and put in place the purchase and restoration of an additional 16,000 acres of privately held lands north of Yellowstone that were long determined as critical core winter range for the Northern Yellowstone Herd. Lands that at the time were being heavily grazed by private cattle producers.
Gardiner Late Hunt was a total "Chitshow"... nothing but lazy hunters.....:
I remember an article on the Gardiner Late Hunt that was written during the period of time before the Grey Wolf re-inroduction. As a part of the article a Game Warden who basically spent his entire career stationed out of Livingston was interviewed. This guy spent over 30 years in the Gardiner and Livingston areas as part of his territory at one time or another. He truly had seen it all. I knew this fellow through professional interactions and contacts and he was a man of few words. But he made a comment I always remembered..." A Hunter can make this Hunt whatever experience he wants it to be"... How true. Yes there were the Chevy Blazers full of Pilgrims running the Eagle Creek Road and above the Airport out of Gardiner. And the shenanigans they pulled. But for many good Hunters it was a great experience. A large landscape of trails and roadless country. Tough conditions and beautiful mornings. Horses saddled and up the mountain an hour before light. Folks hiking from the trailheads and lower drainages before light of morning and back after dark. A Gardiner Bull tag rivaled any other opportunity. It's not fair to lump all of this experience and what were the quality of these Hunters with the negatives of others.
Stories I read and hear of with the current Bison Hunts seem to make the "old" Gardiner Late Hunts seem fairly tame. I have lived out of the Dillon area for the last 15 years. And while I do hunt across the State and I do now have the luxury of being able to hunt during the week and away from the weekends if I so choose. I can give first hand experience to the fact that the level of hunters, pressure, people stepping over each other, Bullchit Shenanigans being pulled, etc etc. all are of much greater magnitude around here now than anything I witnessed during the Gardiner Late Hunt.
The Montana Elk Management Plan Says its So....:
Lord knows I am a Slow Witted Sort on most aspects of life and it's Journey... But try as I might I continue to struggle to find consistent rationale and sound Biological endeavor and field research that has gone into and continues with what is known as the Montana Elk Management Plan and it's associated "EMUs". It was politically born and structured... again in my opinion.... It continues to try and pound round pegs in square holes and vice versa across the state.
When it is placed against the boundary of Yellowstone National Park it glaringly fails to discuss the current conditions and potentials for Elk Management within this Landscape. Below are some comments I wrote from an earlier post on an associated topic.
Interesting isn't it that the Northern Yellowstone EMU Narrative in the MT Elk Plan identifies a Management Unit and it's three Hunting Unit subsets as being of 94% Public Lands. With 6% Private. Supporting around 400,000 acres of viable elk habitat. And within that total approximately 130,000 acres of identified Occupied Winter Range. With an additional 16,000 acres of Critical Winter Range acres added through purchase beginning in the very late 1980's. All this while there is also that "little piece of ground to the south" giving a level and period of habitat support.
Environmental Politics and values aside..... Did many of us see the time when the areas around Gardiner Montana would evolve in the General Rifle Season to a basically a more slanted Permit Only approach? I didn't.
This EMU can't support many Elk?? Hmmm Ok....
As Dr Middleton and many before him have tried to explain. The Elk Winter and Summer ranges north of Yellowstone Park are connected to the Landscapes and supporting resources of Yellowstone itself. I count myself in that group that never considered Yellowstone Park and "Elk Farm" by any means. But all of it together north and south of the political borders as a place and opportunity for much higher ungulate populations than any other area south of Alaska within the North American Continent. At one time that too was a good thing. But now that opportunity is gone. Good or bad....
I've gone on way too long. So will now stop. I promise not to post again for several more months.
As i wrote on an earlier post to a similar topic... Discussing Grey Wolves/Big Game dynamics in today's world rivals discussions of "Trump Politics"..... Lots of different values, ideologies, and emotions.
I watched and listened to Dr. Middleton and I personally thought he made good points and showed a broader outlook to the Yellowstone Ecosystem as well as similar Parks and Wildlife populations around the world. His attempts to key in on the high level of diverse and polarized publics of today connected to our complex and ever challenged natural ecosystems..... all resonated with me.
So some personal perspectives on this subject.....
Late Hunt a Bad Idea:
The Yellowstone Elk herds have held social and political contentions throughout history. The Herds have been both defended at times and abandoned at others. Yes, the Park Service did reduce the numbers inside the Park in the very early 1960's. It should be noted that the Superintendent at the time who "decided" on the "correct" Elk Carrying Capacity for the Park and the associated matters of the time was removed from his position due to his "actions and foresight". The herds continued to grow from the curtailment of the Park actions of the early 1960's. But it wasn't until the mid 1970's and later that the herds were in numbers large enough to begin consistently coming outside of Yellowstone along the northwestern borders and back onto more historical winter ranges of the Upper Yellowstone corridor. Hence became the more consistently yearly "Gardiner Late Season" and with it the cultural values and regional/local economic gains that developed. Elk were sure being hunted and taken before that but the late season influx was seen as an opportunity to harvest more elk from a population mostly not hunted during more traditional fall periods. At the time it was seen as a good thing. Now I guess it was all a bad thing. Yellowstone Park bordering Montana is a unique situation as we all can agree.
No Predation before the reintroduction of the Grey Wolves:
Predation was alive and ongoing what with the effects of Coyotes, Black Bear, and Grizzly Bear during different periods of the year. From Spring calving periods on. Research identified and established Black Bear and Grizzly Bear influences on the Elk populations of the time. Then with Man being another very effective predator through the use of sport hunting. As the ongoing NPS Chief of Research for the Grey Wolf reintroduction program and its current management has stated... there were a number of predators connected to the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd before the re-introduction in 1996 of the Grey Wolf. But that addition just put another weight on the scale.........
In my personal opinion a heavy one..... good bad right or wrong. It now "Is what it is"...
In the late 1980's and into the 1990's the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd and the secured Landscapes it used both within and outside of Yellowstone NP was all described as the "Serengeti of the lower 48". A good thing.... to some. Now we read that the Elk populations were off the charts in comparison to the landscapes they used. And that the wolves were then the good thing. To some. We challenge each other and punch each other's buttons when some of us see the re-introduction of the wolves as a almost totally benign effect and influence across they landscapes and territories that they have established and thrived within. While others of us see any real management of the Grey Wolves starting with daily year round flights with Cobra Gunships.
There is not the Carrying Capacity for many Elk in and around Yellowstone Park:
What seems to me to be a lost dynamic in these discussions is the idea held by some is that the carrying capacities and available winter and summer ranges for the once Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd was and is totally static. It has never changed and "probably decreased" in some view points. The Fires of 1988 opened up a large amount of the existing landscapes. Some most certainly followed their natural successions and are moving back towards the Forested Vegetation Types they formally were. But other areas have remained open and have moved to more grassland/shrub-land settings. A greatly reduced elk population has seen an influx of herbaceous species such as Aspen clones along more riparian settings. But think of the amount of Apsen and other grassland and shrubland communities regenerated due to the 1988 fires. One late morning in the mid 1990's I met another Hunter along a ridge in the head of Hellroaring Creek during the early Bugle Season. We shared the mountain together and talked of the hunting we had experienced. This fellow talked the talk and offered how he came into this country both during the early season as well as later in November. I could tell he had seen Elk Hunting few of us come close to. A key point he made was how he had first hand observed the differences in Elk numbers coming up the drainages out of Yellowstone into the AB Wilderness areas in the summer early fall as well as later. The fires of 88' had just opened up so much more country and available feed. They didn't have to come so far.
In connection with the effects of the 1988 fires was the landmark efforts of the US Forest Service, Montana FWP, and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation to secure the funding and put in place the purchase and restoration of an additional 16,000 acres of privately held lands north of Yellowstone that were long determined as critical core winter range for the Northern Yellowstone Herd. Lands that at the time were being heavily grazed by private cattle producers.
Gardiner Late Hunt was a total "Chitshow"... nothing but lazy hunters.....:
I remember an article on the Gardiner Late Hunt that was written during the period of time before the Grey Wolf re-inroduction. As a part of the article a Game Warden who basically spent his entire career stationed out of Livingston was interviewed. This guy spent over 30 years in the Gardiner and Livingston areas as part of his territory at one time or another. He truly had seen it all. I knew this fellow through professional interactions and contacts and he was a man of few words. But he made a comment I always remembered..." A Hunter can make this Hunt whatever experience he wants it to be"... How true. Yes there were the Chevy Blazers full of Pilgrims running the Eagle Creek Road and above the Airport out of Gardiner. And the shenanigans they pulled. But for many good Hunters it was a great experience. A large landscape of trails and roadless country. Tough conditions and beautiful mornings. Horses saddled and up the mountain an hour before light. Folks hiking from the trailheads and lower drainages before light of morning and back after dark. A Gardiner Bull tag rivaled any other opportunity. It's not fair to lump all of this experience and what were the quality of these Hunters with the negatives of others.
Stories I read and hear of with the current Bison Hunts seem to make the "old" Gardiner Late Hunts seem fairly tame. I have lived out of the Dillon area for the last 15 years. And while I do hunt across the State and I do now have the luxury of being able to hunt during the week and away from the weekends if I so choose. I can give first hand experience to the fact that the level of hunters, pressure, people stepping over each other, Bullchit Shenanigans being pulled, etc etc. all are of much greater magnitude around here now than anything I witnessed during the Gardiner Late Hunt.
The Montana Elk Management Plan Says its So....:
Lord knows I am a Slow Witted Sort on most aspects of life and it's Journey... But try as I might I continue to struggle to find consistent rationale and sound Biological endeavor and field research that has gone into and continues with what is known as the Montana Elk Management Plan and it's associated "EMUs". It was politically born and structured... again in my opinion.... It continues to try and pound round pegs in square holes and vice versa across the state.
When it is placed against the boundary of Yellowstone National Park it glaringly fails to discuss the current conditions and potentials for Elk Management within this Landscape. Below are some comments I wrote from an earlier post on an associated topic.
Interesting isn't it that the Northern Yellowstone EMU Narrative in the MT Elk Plan identifies a Management Unit and it's three Hunting Unit subsets as being of 94% Public Lands. With 6% Private. Supporting around 400,000 acres of viable elk habitat. And within that total approximately 130,000 acres of identified Occupied Winter Range. With an additional 16,000 acres of Critical Winter Range acres added through purchase beginning in the very late 1980's. All this while there is also that "little piece of ground to the south" giving a level and period of habitat support.
Environmental Politics and values aside..... Did many of us see the time when the areas around Gardiner Montana would evolve in the General Rifle Season to a basically a more slanted Permit Only approach? I didn't.
This EMU can't support many Elk?? Hmmm Ok....
As Dr Middleton and many before him have tried to explain. The Elk Winter and Summer ranges north of Yellowstone Park are connected to the Landscapes and supporting resources of Yellowstone itself. I count myself in that group that never considered Yellowstone Park and "Elk Farm" by any means. But all of it together north and south of the political borders as a place and opportunity for much higher ungulate populations than any other area south of Alaska within the North American Continent. At one time that too was a good thing. But now that opportunity is gone. Good or bad....
I've gone on way too long. So will now stop. I promise not to post again for several more months.
There's more thought and reason in this one post than I've seen on this site in a long, long time. Thanks for the thoughts Old Ranger.
My wife was lucky enough to be one of the last few to hold a Gardiner late bull tag. She killed her bull while hunting on horseback above Dome mountain. It was an experience she'll never forget.
Idahoarcheryhunter
Well-known member
The grammar has my head spinning....
Topgun 30-06
Active member
I have to agree with Randy that the post by Old Ranger was as good as any I may have ever read here or on any other site in all my years on the internet---Kudos!
TheDudeAbides
Well-known member
Or we could transplant the buffalo to other places in the US to try and restore their population else where.
The Buffalo slaughters whether they be at Antelope Island or Yellowstone leave a bad taste in my mouth.
I would rather try and move them to Alaska or other public lands, than have a round up and kill.
Topgun 30-06
Active member
I doubt seriously that there would be any monies readily available to move those big critters around the country to any extent, as well as the very real possibility of diseases that most ranchers in an area would be worried about being transferred to their cattle.
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